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Home > Forums > The Open Forum
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You continue to avoid the issue of Personhood...that Catechism paragraph says nothing about it...

Author: TyroneIrish (19866 Posts - Joined: Oct 8, 2020)
Posted at 1:13 am on Dec 17, 2024
View All

I've posted...and others have as well...the link to Mike Lewis' summary of "Pope Francis and the Personhood Debate"...here are the concluding paragraphs that deal with the RCC's position on "Personhood"...note that there will be edits required to avoid a "timeout" cancelling the whole post.
--------------------
During the papacy of Saint John Paul II, the Magisterium began to insist that we consider personhood as if it begins at the moment of conception, however. In Evangelium Vitae, John Paul taught this forcefully: “The human being is to be respected and treated as a person from the moment of conception; and therefore from that same moment his rights as a person must be recognized, among which in the first place is the inviolable right of every innocent human being to life” (60). A few years earlier, the CDF produced a document, Donum Vitae (“Instruction on respect for human life”), which made a similar point: “The human being must be respected – as a person – from the very first instant of his existence” (5.I.1).

Note however, that both the encyclical and the instruction call for the child in the womb “to be respected” as a person from the moment of conception, without definitively teaching that the embryo is a person. Donum Vitae mentions the personhood debate later in the section, stating, “This Congregation is aware of the current debates concerning the beginning of human life, concerning the individuality of the human being and concerning the identity of the human person.” Donum Vitae then quotes from the 1974 CDF document and adds the conclusion, “The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable.”

In 2008, this point was again reiterated by the CDF, then led by Cardinal William Levada under Pope Benedict XVI. In the document Dignitas Personae, the Congregation stated, “If Donum vitae, in order to avoid a statement of an explicitly philosophical nature, did not define the embryo as a person, it nonetheless did indicate that there is an intrinsic connection between the ontological dimension and the specific value of every human life” (5).

What does all of this mean? Well, for one thing, it is clear that the Magisterium has acknowledged on multiple occasions that there is a debate about personhood. It is also clear that the Church has not always considered the life of a human person to begin at conception, nor has the Church definitively taught this. That said, the Church has always regarded abortion to be evil from the moment of conception. More recently, the Church has pushed back against the idea that “delayed personhood” is relevant to its position on the sanctity of human life from the moment of conception. It has taught instead that life, from the moment of conception should be treated and respected as a human person. And in this, Pope Francis has always been in line with Catholic Tradition.

-------------------

While the RCC and Pope Francis are definitely trying to emphasize the "respect" for human life at all stages...and appropriately so...it is clear that there is hesitation in definitively stating that Personhood begins at conception...no one has explained why, but the gap is unmistakable. To me it brings to mind that a fair number of pregnancies end before anyone, including the pregnant woman could possibly know it occurred...and others that result in miscarriages very early where it is not obvious to the woman what sex it even is, so what is the RCC to do? In point of fact, nothing is ever done...there are no "Rites" established for such occurrences...no records kept...and virtually no efforts extended to counsel the women involved and attempt to relieve their sadness. As a side note, I recall a friend of ours recounting the anguish she endured trying to be a good Catholic and scooping out the remains of her miscarriage from her toilet. Perhaps stories like that were relayed to Pope Francis and others during their debates on fetal Personhood.

Now, onto the abortion issue...in our imperfect world there are unfortunately too many forced and coerced pregnancies endured by innocent women who never wanted them, and certainly not the potential lifelong physical and/or mental harm they could bring. Because of this reality, I find it impossible to believe that the one true Person in such circumstances would have no recourse to diminish the effects of such an unwanted assault...i.e. be able to choose an abortion. Some women may be able to deal with carrying the pregnancy to term, but not all can...furthermore, we live in a pluralistic society with other faith members who have different beliefs than Catholics...e.g. many Jews believe that Personhood begins at Birth...so the option of abortion must be made available at least up to the term of gestation where 'Viability' is generally accepted . Also, only the woman involved can possibly determine what is endurable and what is not...no outsiders, and certainly not strangers in a court room, can possibly make a fair and objective judgement about such a thing...i.e. it's her decision, and hers only.

I'd also like to comment on the Catechism's paragraph on "Just Wars" (Par 2309) which deals with the intrinsic Evil of Killing...yet sanctions it if certain conditions exist and sufficient Prudential Judgement is exercised in making that discernment. "Why" is such killing allowed?...no one says, but to me the issue involves more than simple existence...People need to be able to live in freedom and if there is sufficient threat to living such a life then such extreme, albeit "Intrinsically Evil" measures can be taken...the same with forced or coerced pregnancies...if the situation involves an innocent woman who never wanted such a pregnancy, then she should be able to exercise her own "Prudential Judgement", hopefully with the counsel of a Pastor, Doctor, Family Member, and make her own decision...unencumbered by any government intrusion.


Link: https://wherepeteris.com/pope-francis-and-the-personhood-debate/

This message has been edited 3 time(s).

Replies to: "You continue to avoid the issue of Personhood...that Catechism paragraph says nothing about it..."

  • With "Mass Deportations" on the horizon...take a moment and listen to this song, especially those - TyroneIrish - 9:59pm 12/15/24 (55) [View All]
    • Do the right thing and join them, otherwise you are a horrible individual. [NT] - Protagonist - 10:05am 12/16/24
      • Over the last 20 years, my wife and I have joined other volunteers to serve tens of thousands of - TyroneIrish - 1:13pm 12/16/24
        • I definitely think some of them are hard working, but "hard pressed"... I don't think so. - Protagonist - 3:04pm 12/16/24
          • I agree with you, Pro...let's both contact our Reps and Senators and insist that they pass - TyroneIrish - 5:51pm 12/16/24
    • Our illegals are among the most exploited people on earth. [LINK] - Curly1918 - 9:35am 12/16/24
      • Did you read my linked Texas Tribune article on how Texas politicians talk a lot about - TyroneIrish - 1:06pm 12/16/24
    • You had the rules of law in many your posts. People, immigrants too, are subject to the rule of law. - Eli - 2:13am 12/16/24
      • Fortunately, in this country, our laws ensure that undocumented immigrants have rights as well... [LINK] - TyroneIrish - 1:05pm 12/17/24
      • You, the Chicom killer talking about the rule of law is rich to say the least. Buzz the eff off. [NT] - Frank L - 11:23pm 12/16/24
    • A few questions for you... - NedoftheHill - 2:07am 12/16/24
      • My replies... - TyroneIrish - 12:48pm 12/16/24
        • (1) You agree that there has been mass illegal immigration. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 8:34pm 12/16/24
          • I just said that..."Mass Un-Documented Immigration" of people who, by law, have been allowed to - TyroneIrish - 9:30pm 12/16/24
        • (2) No answer re aid. You obviously recognize that your analogy to historic immigration fails. - NedoftheHill - 8:34pm 12/16/24
          • You asked me a question...I gave you my response...sorry you don't get it. [NT] - TyroneIrish - 9:34pm 12/16/24
        • (3) You lie & say you support Church position on abortion. Here it is...please confirm or deny it... - NedoftheHill - 8:34pm 12/16/24
          • You haven't said a word regarding Trump's approach to "Mass Deportations"...i.e. his failure to - TyroneIrish - 5:46pm 12/18/24
          • I've posted more than once that the RCC has never taught that Personhood begins at conception...and [LINK] - TyroneIrish - 9:56pm 12/16/24
            • So, your position is that the definitive document on Catholic Doctrine gets Catholic Doctrine wrong. - NedoftheHill - 10:35pm 12/16/24
              • You continue to avoid the issue of Personhood...that Catechism paragraph says nothing about it... [LINK] - TyroneIrish - 1:13am 12/17/24
    • Say a prayer for Tyson Foods, The Cartels and Tren De Araqua. [NT] - iairishcheeks - 11:01pm 12/15/24
      • Don't be misled...do your own research... [LINK] - TyroneIrish - 11:18pm 12/15/24
        • Say a prayer for the human traffickers and fentanyl producers. [NT] - iairishcheeks - 11:46pm 12/15/24
          • You’re stuck in your pre-conceived opinion…read the link for what’s actually happening. [NT] - TyroneIrish - 12:32am 12/16/24
            • Wasn't ABC News in the news recently, what was it? I don't recall... [NT] - iairishcheeks - 1:05am 12/16/24
              • Yes, indeed...over a settlement regarding Trump's sexual assault against E. Jean Carroll... [LINK] - TyroneIrish - 11:51am 12/16/24
                • You seem to have a consistent problem distinguishing between criminal or civil statuites and codes - JarHead4ND - 1:20am 12/17/24
                  • Judge Merchan and the jury determined that DJT penetrated E. Jean Carroll's vagina with his finger - TyroneIrish - 2:50pm 12/17/24
                    • Please post your copy of the jury instructions regarding a finding of rape. - JarHead4ND - 10:29pm 12/17/24
                      • "Judge says E Jean Carroll allegation Trump raped her is ‘substantially true’ in court dismissal"... [LINK] - TyroneIrish - 12:26pm 12/18/24
                    • Okay: 1. You'll need a link for that claim; 2. Please post your copy of jury instructions t [NT] - JarHead4ND - 10:29pm 12/17/24
                    • Okay: 1. You'll need a link for that claim; 2. Please post your copy of jury instructions t [NT] - JarHead4ND - 10:29pm 12/17/24
                    • Heh, did they smell his finger or what was the evidence for that? [NT] - iairishcheeks - 2:55pm 12/17/24
                • Biden has been a destructive and despicable president, so answer your own question. - iairishcheeks - 4:33pm 12/16/24
                  • Biden has delivered legislation that benefits all Americans, while strengthening our critical - TyroneIrish - 6:17pm 12/16/24
                    • Sure, that's why Joe is -19 in job approval. [NT] - iairishcheeks - 8:08pm 12/16/24
                      • Joe's performance is already in the record books and it's a very good one...DJT's 2% margin was not - TyroneIrish - 10:07pm 12/16/24
                        • Who should we blame for The Big Guy's disastrous approval ranking? White women? - iairishcheeks - 2:15pm 12/17/24
                        • Yes Joe's performance is in the books as terrible - Buffaloirish - 11:23pm 12/16/24
    • Again, you do not speak for Catholics. - jakers - 10:47pm 12/15/24
      • Who made you the arbiter? [NT] - TyroneIrish - 11:21pm 12/15/24
        • Say a prayer for angel moms. [NT] - ELP - 12:00am 12/16/24
          • Same as Cheeks…stuck in your pre-conceived opinion… - TyroneIrish - 12:35am 12/16/24
            • You need to explain that to these angel moms. It will make them all feel better. You are such a fool [NT] - ELP - 8:03am 12/16/24
              • The data from Texas....the only state that tracks violent crime by immigration status...shows that [LINK] - TyroneIrish - 11:30am 12/16/24
                • Maybe we can export our violent criminals to Venezuela like they did to us. [NT] - iairishcheeks - 12:59pm 12/16/24
                  • One more time...the violent crime rate for undocumented immigrants is LESS than that of native born - TyroneIrish - 1:45pm 12/16/24
                    • Why don't you adopt a Tren De Aragua member, then let us know how that goes. [NT] - iairishcheeks - 2:25pm 12/16/24
                      • You're not listening...the violent crime rate among native born Americans is greater than that of - TyroneIrish - 6:19pm 12/16/24
                        • We should have dropped off violent citizens when we were picking up Tren De Aragua in Venezuela. [NT] - iairishcheeks - 8:09pm 12/16/24
                          • You mean like the "Sexual Assaulter-in-Chief"? ;-)... [NT] - TyroneIrish - 10:35pm 12/16/24
                            • Yeah, sure, due process be damned. [NT] - iairishcheeks - 2:54pm 12/17/24
                            • Nice deflection as usual and are you - Buffaloirish - 11:21pm 12/16/24
                              • Re: Nice deflection as usual and are you - Buffaloirish - 11:26pm 12/16/24
            • Are you including the crime of crossing the border illegally? [NT] - iairishcheeks - 1:09am 12/16/24
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