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Home > Forums > The Open Forum
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It says more than that. You are looking for non-existent differences between "is" and "treated as."

Author: NedoftheHill (46063 Posts - Joined: Jun 30, 2011)
Posted at 12:14 am on Feb 2, 2026
View All

I imagine that the reason they say the human must be treated "as a parson" rather than saying it "is a person" is to obviate arguments made by people like you. Even if you win, and the unborn is deemed not a legal person because your political party says so, the unborn still must be treated as if they were a person under Catholic Doctrine. So, again, you lose either way. That's what Francis was saying. He wasn't giving credence to the debate; he was saying the debate is irrelevant to the moral equation.

From the Catholic Catechism:

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.


- Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74 God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined.... As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."80

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual.... It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."81

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."


This message has been edited 1 time(s).

Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.

Replies to: "It says more than that. You are looking for non-existent differences between "is" and "treated as.""

  • Comments? [NT] [LINK] - Hensou - 1:37pm 2/1/26 (53) [View All]
    • “Georgetown West” [NT] - TakethetrainKnute - 7:20pm 2/1/26
      • Indeed. Cover that crucifix for the Democrats. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 9:20pm 2/1/26
        • Dining halls will soon be serving halal and kosher meat [NT] - LanceManion - 12:21am 2/2/26
    • Jesus taught us to love. Why do MAGAs almost always choose hate & discrimination? [NT] - ND521 - 5:39pm 2/1/26
      • You have no love for the unborn innocent little ones. - ELP - 6:15pm 2/1/26
        • Wrong. Why do you genuflect for Don, a child rapist who paid for multiple abortions? [NT] - ND521 - 11:34pm 2/1/26
          • So, I'm assuming you have that evidence that you're ready to present to the board. [NT] - ELP - 1:36am 2/2/26
        • Seems a new tactic on his & Tyrone's part... - NedoftheHill - 6:25pm 2/1/26
          • Stop spreading false rumors...just ask me point blank...and respond point blank to my answers... - TyroneIrish - 8:09pm 2/1/26
            • Ha! Let's see if you can do it... - NedoftheHill - 8:59pm 2/1/26
              • Unreal...you want an answer to YOUR question...but refuse to dialogue on my questions/answers... - TyroneIrish - 9:24pm 2/1/26
                • Ha! I didn't think you could do it. So brazen about it, too. Not surprising. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 9:44pm 2/1/26
                  • Still no justice for women from Ned...'Just Tough It Out, Honey' [NT] - TyroneIrish - 10:04pm 2/1/26
                    • BTW: I give you credit for making a pro-abortion argument that doesn't misrepresent Chuch teaching. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 12:03am 2/2/26
                      • The Church teaches that ALL life must be respected...and that includes women who are unjustly - TyroneIrish - 12:31am 2/2/26
                        • And here you were doing so well. Go back and read the Catechism, and see where you went wrong. - NedoftheHill - 1:07am 2/2/26
                    • Still no justice for innocent babies, Tyrone...just tough out the dismemberment. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 11:15pm 2/1/26
                      • Again...you ignore the innocent woman being assaulted and give her no choice in the matter... - TyroneIrish - 12:13am 2/2/26
                        • On the contrary. I recognize the full and true heinous nature of the assault... - NedoftheHill - 12:21am 2/2/26
          • Nothing in your comment text is true. Or even close. [NT] - ND521 - 8:03pm 2/1/26
            • And yet you seek to make my "comment text" true with your posts. - NedoftheHill - 9:01pm 2/1/26
    • Let's hear it for litmuses tests [NT] - D2 - 5:17pm 2/1/26
    • She doesn’t look Asian, is she transitioning? [NT] - holybull101 - 5:13pm 2/1/26
    • Not sure that the director of an Asian Studies center is worth all this angst - Chris94 - 4:50pm 2/1/26
    • Another Observer article. If I were a betting man, I’d say she’s toast. - LanceManion - 3:00pm 2/1/26
      • Susan Ostermann has been a well respected professor at ND since 2017...she was given that leadership - TyroneIrish - 3:48pm 2/1/26
        • BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ZYGOTES?!?! - Chris94 - 6:46pm 2/1/26
        • Lying again about Personhoodgate, I see [NT] - MarkHarman - 5:52pm 2/1/26
          • He actually said the issue was/is debated…no lie. [NT] - TyroneIrish - 6:15pm 2/1/26
            • He recognized fact that people like you debate legal personhood & said the debate is irrelevant. - NedoftheHill - 9:11pm 2/1/26
        • I’m sure she’s respected in her field but the disparaging comments will kill her - LanceManion - 5:21pm 2/1/26
          • Her history was well known prior to her selection…why should this be a problem? [NT] - TyroneIrish - 6:17pm 2/1/26
        • Pope Francis opposes ALL abortion. You're lying again. [NT] - jakers - 3:56pm 2/1/26
          • What then is the purpose of Francis mentioning the Debate over fetal Personhood?...he could have - TyroneIrish - 4:44pm 2/1/26
            • He said regardless of the outcome of that debate, abortion is morally wrong. - NedoftheHill - 6:34pm 2/1/26
              • Under certain conditions, RCC Doctrine allows for Killing others (see Catechism Par. 2309)...why not - TyroneIrish - 8:03pm 2/1/26
                • Not for abortion. See Section 2270 et. seq., entitled, believe it or not, "Abortion." - NedoftheHill - 9:18pm 2/1/26
                  • I've read that section...it states that the embryo must be treated "As" a person,..but not "IS" a - TyroneIrish - 11:33pm 2/1/26
                    • It says more than that. You are looking for non-existent differences between "is" and "treated as." - NedoftheHill - 12:14am 2/2/26
              • “Doctors who do this are – allow me the word – hitmen. They are hitmen”. Pope Francis added… - TakethetrainKnute - 7:51pm 2/1/26
                • In the case of 'Just Wars', soldiers of the attacked nation are allowed to become "Hitmen"...under - TyroneIrish - 8:52pm 2/1/26
    • Let us know if the University invites Trump or Vance as a commencement speaker. - conorlarkin - 2:16pm 2/1/26
      • No Trump. Thank you Fr John! [NT] - ND521 - 5:47pm 2/1/26
    • How much funding will she bring to ND? [NT] - Shadow_of_the_Dome - 2:08pm 2/1/26
      • $8 [NT] - LanceManion - 3:01pm 2/1/26
    • Miscamble opinion [NT] [LINK] - Hensou - 1:41pm 2/1/26
      • Well said by Fr. Miscamble. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 6:42pm 2/1/26
      • Another Fr Ted hater. Like you. [NT] - ND521 - 5:54pm 2/1/26
      • Based on Miscamble's 'hatchet job' of a book on Fr. Ted, I'd say he has a jaundiced view of our - TyroneIrish - 3:53pm 2/1/26
        • Not "our." - jakers - 4:00pm 2/1/26
          • That would make you a certified Liar…just so you know - TyroneIrish - 6:23pm 2/1/26
      • She’ll get bounced following parental & donor pressure. - LanceManion - 2:51pm 2/1/26
        • We can only hope. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 6:41pm 2/1/26

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