1) No one answered the Central Question in the abortion debate..."Are women who suffer Unwanted Pregnancies due to rapes, incest or abusive spouses not VICTIMS?"...and deserving of a means to stop any further injury and burden?...Crickets...every time I bring up that question, especially to Ned.
2) No one answered the related question of whether women should be forced by our government through threats of imprisonment and/or fines, to be required to carry such pregnancies to term and suffer the lifetime burden of care for that child?
3) Many posters believed that only Catholic or Christian views of morality counted in the formulation of American laws...case in point...the Jewish faith believes "Personhood" begins at birth...not conception and yet Catholics/Christians say it is at Conception...thus forcing Jews...and others...to bend to their unique view even though they (Non-Christians) may be living their lives in full accordance with their own beliefs...essentially, disenfranchising everyone else.
4) Numerous posters discount the fact that upwards of 91% of Americans, of all faiths and backgrounds favor the legalization and availability of abortion as an option for women confronted with Unwanted Pregnancies...essentially claiming that they are not making a moral judgement and just participating in a popularity poll...whereas the 9% are the only ones making a true moral decision that is best for all the rest...IMO outright HUBRIS on their part.
These differences are found not just on this forum, but all across the country...we need to continue to focus on them and resolve them if we are to move ahead together. I'll continue to bring these questions to the fore...one by one.
A woman’s life. I am for maximizing personal freedoms and those would be odds with personal freedoms.
2). Yes, the woman should have to goto term and then have the opportunity to put up for adoption or keep, for lack of a better term
3). If a life doesn’t begin until birth, then there should be no tax money allocated to any medical needs prior to birth. I find many laws And regulations at odds with my beliefs. My disenfranchisement doesn’t matter, I guess.
4) if a woman has enough control of her body to risk pregnancy, it’s not really unwanted
And, of course, the potential father has no say in anything, correct? At least until the woman wants money.
Also, unless you are fully supportive of the legalization of all drugs and for prostitution, please don’t post on this topic again. If you’re not for those, you really don’t believe in a woman’s right to choose what she wants to do with her body.
Drive your bus off the political cliff.
Link: https://forum.uhnd.com/forum/index.php?action=display&forumid=2&msgid=91478
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I wonder why he'd lie about that.
Link: PEW
from the Arizona report...
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OH Predictive Insight’s September Arizona Public Opinion Pulse shows 91% of the state’s registered voters want abortion to be legally available in at least some cases, including rape, incest and the health of the mother and fetus. Only 9% believe there should be a total ban on the procedure.
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Can you summon up the courage to admit you're wrong?
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don't understand yet why their view of abortion represents such a small minority of Americans...i.e. as low as 1 in 10...something's missing in your thought process...you need to understand what that is.
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Thank God for Joe Biden and the Democrats.
The left (you) always, and I mean always, accuse others what they themselves are doing.
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women in America be able to plot the course of their own lives when it comes to reproduction?...or will they have our government compel them to accept all Unwanted Pregnancies, regardless of how they are created...even if caused for rape, incest and physical abuse?
Seems pretty important to me.
You obviously are not one of them.
require the option...if they so choose...of abortion. Simply banning abortions does not solve the problem...we've been down this road before (i.e. pre-Rove v. Wade) when illegal abortions were rampant along with all the attendant injuries and deaths resulting from them...those stories and data are what compelled the SCOTUS at that time to take such action...we are merely repeating the process now as a result of the Dobbs decision.
Careful though. Respond too much to him and he'll tattle.
Link: PEW
your link lumps objection to 'Most' abortion cases together with 'All' cases...the call for banning ALL abortions is represented by only 9-15% of Americans...therefore the vast majority in this country want that option to be legalized.
Link: https://www.knau.org/knau-and-arizona-news/2022-09-28/new-data-shows-arizona-voter-sentiment-on-abortion-does-not-align-with-recent-scotus-ruling
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abortions are in a distinct minority...even Catholics who hold that position...any way you slice it, the vast majority of ALL Americans want the OPTION to be available...and I dare say that ALL of them hope the option is not taken...but leave that decision to the woman involved.
There is no 'lying' about the fact that all polls show a very small percentage of Americans favor banning all abortions...therefore the message is "Make abortion legal and available'...that's all you have to know.
Link: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/05/23/like-americans-overall-catholics-vary-in-their-abortion-views-with-regular-mass-attenders-most-opposed/
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1) Of course they are victims. Full answer below. Have you answered my question? Does being a victim give you the right to fix your situation by victimizing another innocent person? The answer is no, which is a problem for you that you have not addressed.
2) No. Just punish doctors for killing babies. This is the approach pushed by the pro-life movement. You should know that by now.
3) Addressed in great detail in several of my posts below. Abortion laws are as secular of an issue as other homicide statutes.
4) Also addressed below. Do some reading. Then we can take this up next week.
on item #1...you acknowledge that women are indeed victims, but you offer no relief...at all...according to you, they must accept their fate and carry the unwanted burden for the rest of their lives...moreover, those women now need to find an additional $200K - $300K in today's dollars to raise that child to adulthood, plus any and all other expenses that might come along, such a severe illness, or chronic maladies such as autism, or serious injury...on top of lost income from becoming perhaps a single mother before achieving a complete education that would allow sufficient income...the list of challenges goes on...and on...
Your justification for this is centered on the belief that "Personhood" begins at Conception...yet, that belief is not shared by the majority of Americans who believe that condition is met only at Birth or at Quickening...thus allowing for abortion before ~21 weeks...you see the problem here, don't you?
There's more to discuss on just this topic when you're free next week.
You aren't reading my posts.
The moral calculus is simple: harm/hardship should not be shifted to innocent people.
Abortion is wrong because it does this.
Do we allow our poor to rob people to address their poorness, which may be due to them being victimized? No, because that increases victimization and immorality. we just try to help the poor. The same should be done for women with an unwanted pregnancy.
Harm must be dealt with where it lies. I do that...out of my own pocket. I should do more. Do you do it at all? I would encourage you to go buy diapers for a Catholic home for women with crisis pregnancies. (Please don't firebomb it.)
My justification is foremost scientific: The mammal life cycle begins at conception. This is settled science.
I also believe it is, as a matter of default, wrong to take away the most fundamental of human rights, the right to life. If you want to justify taking a human life, you must offer the justification, and I have not yet heard a sufficient justification to take the life of a child in situations like this. Taking a life of an innocent child should be a serious thing.
Boarding my flight now.
by Pro-Life extremists...and yes, Pro-Choice extremists are wrong to firebomb pregnancy aid facilities.
As for supporting those crisis centers...my wife and I have been supporting such a shelter in our community for decades now...in fact we have not only given funding from our pockets, but organized others to help us reach out with donation campaigns so as to amplify our efforts...again, this has been going on for many years.
I do read your posts...and every post I respond to, including their links before I respond...in this instance, I clearly get that you are fixated on the act of "Killing"...and then shutting down any further thought. Here are a few additional thoughts for you to ponder...some you've heard before, but others probably new...
>You admit that in cases of rape, incest and spousal abuse, the victim is every bit as innocent as the potential life you are fixated on...yet you fail to appreciate the magnitude of the burden placed on the woman...just offering diapers, food and a temporary place to stay won't compensate for the $200K - $300K she'll need to raise that child, not counting all the other physical, emotional and economic burdens for the rest of her life...all totally unwanted and undeserved...is this justice?
>Your fixation on "Killing" assumes that Personhood at conception is a universally accepted doctrine...I've tried to show you that it is not...other faiths are explicit in their belief that this condition is not realized until either birth, 'quickening', or 'viability...and these beliefs are not established 'off handedly'...their theologians have come to this conclusion...do you accept this reality from fellow citizens of this country?
I'll stop here for the moment and let you digest what I've said...then when you return from Vegas (hopefully for the game), let's talk more about these comments, and tee up others that are also related.
Note...while the two of us are engaged, I hope that others will offer thoughts as well...with the same degree of maturity and thought as you are displaying.
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something tells be Adoption isn't the magic solution...but don't get me wrong...that alternative should ALWAYS be encouraged...along with Contraception, Sex/Sexuality Education, and more $$ for child care programs.