out there was more illegally possessed classified documents....is that not a federal crime?
And then when you turn that batch in and tell the FBI that this is really all of it now- but then it turns out that there is even more illegally possessed classified documents...is that not another federal crime?
And then when you turn that in & say, "Ok, THAT's all of it finally!"- but then it turns out there was yet more illegally possessed classified documents that you had been hanging on to...is that not a federal crime?
And of course, illegally possessing the classified documents, storing them insecurely (even near a corvette), and DISTRIBUTING THEM TO DIFFERENT LOCATIONS all of which are also insecure...that's an intentional crime.
You can't unintentionally sneak classified documents out of the White House and then unintentionally take them to four (so far as we know now) different locations. Further, the intent of the act is not supposed to matter with classified documents per the law (unless your HRC).
And you can't claim that you didn't know that it was illegal when you clearly stated in your comments on your political rival that you DO KNOW that it is illegal.
That's a LOT of crimes.
edited to update newly discovered classified document locations.
Have you suddenly evolved and agree DJT should spend a few years in the Clink?
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Trump deliberately obstructed and refused to return highly classified documents that he willfully removed from White House upon leaving office. Trump has real criminal exposure.
In contrast, Biden immediately alerted the appropriate agency upon learning of the classified material’s existence. That is, Biden immediately recognized that the classified material was located in a place where it shouldn’t be.
Per my reply to Tampa, it does not mean that Biden is not accountable, even if he did not act with criminal intent.
His counsel found the documents. His counsel alerted the National Archives. The National Archives reported the finding on Nov 4. It is now Jan 15 and NPR is reporting yet another round of classified documents have been found.
You might argue that Biden is clueless about the existence of these documents and that is why the DOJ is finding new documents a month and a half later. That's why the DOJ is having to search and find, rather than Biden's counsel providing the documents directly.
You might also argue that Biden was aware of the three other batches of classified documents, and that he has knowingly hid his knowledge of the locations of those documents. You would expect a competent and honest individual to have provided all of these documents back in November. Strike that, you would expect a competent and honest individual to have provided these documents at the time of the Mar-a-lago raid. But that's not what happened. These documents are being discovered as we speak. Why? Is Joe really cooperating? There is no indication that Joe is assisting in the search.
I will repeat that it was a third party, not Joe Biden, that has done all of the 'cooperating.' The fact that documents are being discovered a month and a half later, rather than immediately after the first discovery has to give us pause.
We can assume that Joe has been asked to identify other locations of classified documents. If he is "cooperating," the timing of these discoveries is interesting. Why is it taking so long to find them? Is it incompetence on Joe's part? Maybe. Is it obstruction? Also maybe. Again, there is no indication that Joe is assisting in the search. It very well could be that he is knowingly and willing withholding information of the whereabouts of the locations of these documents.
Incompetence? Obstruction? Take your fucking pick, Conor
And re the facts, I will defer to the Special Counsel's findings.
I addressed inadvertence in my reply to Tampa. Committing a crime is different than being accountable to the nation and all those entrusted with handling classified documents.
There were two choices, Conor. You have to account for the timeline if you are going to argue competency.
- Why is this information coming out now rather than before the midterms?
- Why didn't the raid of Mar-a-lago prompt Joe to take stock of his own documentation. If he was truly being cooperative, why didn't we learn of these documents around the same time?
- Why didn't the competent Joe Biden disclose the location of all of the classified documents at the beginning of November?
- Why is it that DOJ search and seizures is stumbling across this documentation weeks after the reported intial discovery? Shouldn't we expect that a cooperating and competent Joe Biden would have led them to this documentation weeks ago?
You are doing a terrible job arguing that Joe is cooperating to the extent that he is capable.
- Why is this information coming out now rather than before the midterms?
Biden was not a candidate in 2022 elections. To the extent the public should have been notified sooner than later, is not a question of criminality.
- Why didn't the raid of Mar-a-lago prompt Joe to take stock of his own documentation. If he was truly being cooperative, why didn't we learn of these documents around the same time?
Because I assume he was confident no such classified material was not where it should be. I assume every elected official and intelligence officer has done a Spring Cleaning at home after this story broke.
- Why didn't the competent Joe Biden disclose the location of all of the classified documents at the beginning of November?
Disclose to whom? You or the appropriate federal agency? It appears he did notify the appropriate federal agency in a timely and appropriate manner. To my knowledge, Biden has never asserted that it was OK for the classified material to be at his DC office or Delaware home. Quite the contrary.
- Why is it that DOJ search and seizures is stumbling across this documentation weeks after the reported initial discovery? Shouldn't we expect that a cooperating and competent Joe Biden would have led them to this documentation weeks ago?
There are no 4th Amendment searches and seizures here because Biden has cooperated and consented to the retrieval of the documents. It is fair to ask whether Biden authorized a through search of any and all documents at any possible location to ensure a completed deep dive. I will wait for the Special Counsel to provide answers to all of the above.
But, I am glad to know that you and other posters suddenly have a new found appreciation for the importance of maintaining tight protocols re classified material, and maintaining accountability. For so many posters here, the rule of law has long been viewed as a fungible commodity that only applied to suckers. But, certainly not to a President or former President.
- Why is this information coming out now rather than before the midterms?
Biden was not a candidate in 2022 elections. To the extent the public should have been notified sooner than later, is not a question of criminality.
-- He wasn't a candidate, but is your assertion here that it's not possible that party interests could be a factor?
- Why didn't the raid of Mar-a-lago prompt Joe to take stock of his own documentation. If he was truly being cooperative, why didn't we learn of these documents around the same time?
Because I assume he was confident no such classified material was not where it should be. I assume every elected official and intelligence officer has done a Spring Cleaning at home after this story broke.
-- This suggests incompetence. This are classified documents, not a winter hat and gloves. You don't misplace classified documents or forget where you put them. These are not your TV remote.
- Why didn't the competent Joe Biden disclose the location of all of the classified documents at the beginning of November?
Disclose to whom? You or the appropriate federal agency? It appears he did notify the appropriate federal agency in a timely and appropriate manner. To my knowledge, Biden has never asserted that it was OK for the classified material to be at his DC office or Delaware home. Quite the contrary.
-- They found new documents yesterday. He did not notify anyone of those documents; they were discovered
The competent Joe Biden had a responsibility to notify someone of the documents they discovered yesterday and he did not do that. The first batch of docs were found (we are told) in early November. We would expect that he notify a federal agency of the location of ALL docs at that time. The competent Joe Biden did not notify the appropriate federal agency in a timely and appropriate manner.
- Why is it that DOJ search and seizures is stumbling across this documentation weeks after the reported initial discovery? Shouldn't we expect that a cooperating and competent Joe Biden would have led them to this documentation weeks ago?
There are no 4th Amendment searches and seizures here because Biden has cooperated and consented to the retrieval of the documents. It is fair to ask whether Biden authorized a through search of any and all documents at any possible location to ensure a completed deep dive. I will wait for the Special Counsel to provide answers to all of the above.
But, I am glad to know that you and other posters suddenly have a new found appreciation for the importance of maintaining tight protocols re classified material, and maintaining accountability. For so many posters here, the rule of law has long been viewed as a fungible commodity that only applied to suckers. But, certainly not to a President or former President.
-- that doesn't in anyway answer the relevant question. You in no way have addressed the timeline of events. You have attempted to redirect the conversation, but you have failed to provide any convincing argument for the gap between the original discovery and the one made yesterday. The best you have been able to do is to argue for incompetence.
Because Biden's lawyers were the ones who initially discovered the classified documents, it would make sense for a prudent and responsible lawyer to gather all facts before unleashing a story to the press for folks like you to conjecture. For instance, assume Biden was not the person who packed up his office as he departed the Vice Presidency in January 2017. Assume he delegated to one or more than one assistant. That person is entitled to notice and entitled to counsel. It would be reckless and irresponsible to "go public" and unfairly throw an assistant under the bus. It may be that is unknown who packed up the Vice President's files, or unknown at which point classified files were intermingled with non-classified documents. It may take some time to gather that information.
It has not been established that Biden was aware that he was in possession of classified documents at any off campus locations. Hence, he had no knowledge nor likely any inkling. So no, it is not a situation of searching for drug paraphernalia that may be in the attic or basement on one's first day of probation. If Biden never had reason to believe that classified material was intermingled with his other stuff, then not sure why he would think to look. If he had some notice that it was plausible that documents were intermingled, then prudence demands that he should have double checked asap.
Biden (through his lawyers) did make a timely disclosure. No credible source has suggested otherwise. There is zero suggestion that Biden has endeavored to conceal the documents or play keep away.
You keep suggesting yesterday's discovery/disclosure is the "smoking gun." It is not. And I am 100% confident that the Special Counsel will not treat yesterday's discovery/disclosure as significant. Rather, the Special Counsel's focus will be on (1) the original intermingling of classified material with non-classified material and (2) the failure of the Vice President's office to uncover the misplaced classified material thereafter. That is, whether Biden knew or "should have known" that classified material was misplaced and intermingled will be the focus of the investigation.
And notice that none of the Biden supporters on this Board have posted that this is "nothin burger."
Biden immediately alerted the appropriate agency upon learning of the classified material’s existence. You have no basis for that claim.
You argue that Biden is competent and then acknowledged that he and/or his staff would be so careless as to unknowing distribute classified documents throughout the Eastern seaboard.
You give Biden the benefit of the doubt that the delay was intended to provide a staffer with notice and counsel, but if we are to make that assumption for Biden, then we can certainly assume that Trump was delaying handing over documents for the same reason. That is not the assumption you are willing to grant Trump though. You claimed obstruction on Trump's part.
I don't know where I've suggested that yesterday's discovery is a smoking gun. It is simply another data point. Another pile of documents in a seemingly unending pile of documents that Biden is unware of. And you claim competence. You claim he is unaware of all of these documents but is still competent and honest. But those two things cannot be simultaneously true. He cannot have been this negligent and still be considered competent. He cannot have had a staff that is this sloppy and still be considered competent.
And if he is competent, he would not be this negligent and his staff would not be this sloppy. And he would have know that unclassified documents are his possession and where those documents were. And I'd he was honest, he would have come forward with the entirety of the documents. He would have come forward with them not in November, but when he was reminded the seriousness of having them when Mar-a-lago was raided.
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Excerpt from NPR
On four occasions, classified documents were found at Biden's private residence and a D.C. office he used before becoming president.
Early last November, Biden's personal lawyers were packing files from an office he had in Washington for his work at the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement, a think-tank founded by the University of Pennsylvania.
There, in a "locked closet," the White House said, they discovered some classified files that should not have been there. The documents were turned over to the National Archives.
Then, on Nov. 4, the National Archives inspector general informed the Department of Justice of the discovery. By mid-November, Garland had tapped John Lausch, a Trump-appointed U.S. Attorney in Chicago, to oversee an assessment of the materials.
On Dec. 20, Biden's personal counsel Robert Bauer informed Lausch that another set of documents had been found that day in the garage of Biden's private home in Wilmington, Del. Those documents were soon secured by the FBI.
On Jan. 11 — two days after CBS News broke a story about the documents — Biden's personal attorneys searched his homes in Wilmington and Rehoboth Beach. They found one classified document at Biden's Wilmington home.
On Thursday, the White House described the review as being over. "The search is complete," White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre told reporters.
But on Saturday, Sauber, the White House lawyer, said he had found five more pages at Biden's Wilmington home on Thursday when he was working with DOJ officials to hand over what he had days earlier described as one final page of classified material.
Link: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/14/1149071576/biden-classified-documents-what-we-know
Are you saying that the DOJ was part of the cover up before the Fall election (very possible)? If so, the DOJ’s inaction allowed at least theee other classified document troves to sit vulnerable to foreign nationals.
You suppose everything bad about Trump without evidence which is exactly what you claim of me below when I stated far more facts than you.
All we have is their say-so they did.
“Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States or any case filed under title 11, or in relation to or contemplation of any such matter or case, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.”
That is the reason why a federal court authorized a search warrant for Mar-A-Lago.
Only gross negligence is needed per the statute, not intent. Read it for yourself. James Comey essentially rewrote the meaning of the statute when he let Hillary skate, but James Comey does not establish legal precedent changes of written law.
But. let's set aside this point and just for a moment consider that the law did require intent. Biden would have to claim that these documents which only he could remove from his office upon leaving were distributed to his Think Tank, his personal library, his garage next to his favorite car, and another page of classified material in a different room of his personal home without inent which is ludicrous. But the law DOES NOT mention INTENT. yet even so, Biden clearly had intent. He also cannot claim ignorance, given his comments about Trump.
And we haven't discussed the requiremnt by law of timely notification when a breach is found....we now know that they knew back on Nov 1rst, yet only notified much later (unless the Garland DOJ is part of this cover up too, but I am not going believe that at this point).
Link: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
Here is the section that you cite:
(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Have you looked up Gross Negligence yet?
Don’t you think we need more facts before you can fairly discuss criminal wrongdoing?
he illegally removed multiple documents and then disseminated them in (at least so far) 4 different unsecured locations, including even his garage! Further, he insecurely stored some of these documents at a Think Tank which receives financial support from China, one of those documents was found to have been free and separate in another room meaning that it was being examined by someone without clearance, potentially spies. Joe Biden himself has expressed his own view of the matter of taking home classified documents after retirement "How could that even be possible". "How could anyone possibly be THAT irresponsible?" He indicates that his own action here is beyond a level of irresponsibility that he can even imagine. This goes beyond simple negligence and qualifies as "gross negligence". I agree with The Big Guy.
Also, a previous point ignored by you is that Biden did not answer truthfully about having completely turned in everything after the first batch, the second batch, and the third batch because in each case, more turned up later (unless we have a corrupt and incompetent AG who does not ask "Is this all of it?").
What will be particularly interesting is what documents he felt were worth all of this effort. We have reports that some of them involved the Ukraine at the time Hunter was there with Burisma taking part in his family enrichment activities. These details need to be investigated thoroughly, as does the list of visitors to Bidens home that could have had access to these classified documents.
Link: https://twitter.com/i/status/1612598929345941506
It has not been established that Biden himself ever knowingly or with gross negligence removed or transported classified material. Thus far, he has asserted zero knowledge that it happened.
- how did these documents get to three sites in his personal home including his personal library, his living area in his home, and his garage next to his beloved rare corvette with the secure garage door……and then at the Think Tank with his name on the wall as well? Who is the one person with access to all 4?
Was it Trump? NOoooooo. Was it Brandon? YEeeessss.
Or is that only of the findings fit your narrative???
intent is proveable anyways.
I have no trust in Garland appointing an "independent prosecutor", but I have hope that the person he picked does his job.
To start, i would not be allowing Biden's closet cleaners to be tampering with evidence. i would have the FBI raid the homes and clear out everything....too bad they didn't treat biden the same as Trump and do it by surprise.
If the Special Counsel recommends a criminal prosecution, then we would see Impeachment or Resignation.
You keep assuming there is criminal wrongdoing here.
Yet, we never heard a peep from you that there was any criminal wrongdoing by Trump at Mar-a-Lago, on much clearer facts. You and others kept asserting that the Mar--a-Lago raid was "political." Or, that Trump declassified the material.
And we both know that grand juries almost always give the SC what they want.
I predict that it will be Joe Biden that is the first POTUS to ever pardon himself. And here you thought it would be Trump. You see, Trump may very well win his argument that he declassifed the documents as president. Biden has no such defense as VP.
All of this assumes an honest SC. I will be very interested to hear what the documents contain that he went to all of this trouble for. Isuspect the family enrichment plan with Hunter left a trail that he needed to clean up, but who knows.
I also do agree with you that Biden could step down as part of some deal ultimately.
have no shame, do you? You cannot talk about Biden taking classified documents and scattering them around different places without bringing Trump into the conversation. You’re supposed to be intelligent but can’t even realize you’re mentally broken, because of one man.
Let each case stand in its own and have the discussion on Biden without mentioning “prosecuting Trump”. Biden taking these documents, while VP, and leaving them in public places needs to be investigated. All his offices and houses need to be throughly searched. Not by his own lawyers, by law enforcement.
In the room behave with classified documents?
We need to know more facts as to:
— how classified documents were intermingled with the Vice President’s personal files in the first place?
— who placed the classified documents in the personal files? Was this done during the transition in December 2016/January 2017?
— was the Vice President ever aware that these classified documents were intermingled with personal files?
— how did these classified documents make their way to Biden’s DC office and his home and garage in Delaware?
Even assuming Biden was unaware the classified documents were ever intermingled with his personal files, it is still a big deal because Biden is the Commander in Chief and head of the Executive Branch. Thousands of Government employees, elected officials, and military personnel handle classified material. They are held to a very strict standard re protocols and are held accountable for good reason. The President has to set the example.
In order to maintain our nation’s high standards re handling classified material, President Biden should consider resignation. Not because Biden did anything that was criminal, but because the need for accountability is paramount when it comes to protecting classified material.
Under any scenario, the carelessness that has led to the recent discovery of these classified documents, has greatly diminished the authority of the United States to prosecute Trump.
And Biden having them in his garage, office and library are different cases altogether. Leave Trump out of Biden being incompetent.
Trump’s criminal exposure is because he willfully played “keep away” with the classified material that he should not have had in the first place.
Likewise, the classified material at Biden’s office and home should not have been there in the first place. As stated in my post above, whether Biden was even aware that the classified material had ever been misplaced does not end the inquiry as to accountability.
his favorite car which he clearly mentioned knowing about in his press conference.
How can one claim no intent? One cannot unintentionally distribute the documents to multiple personally connected locations like this.
The Dems do nothing wrong as these Libs never admit guilt. There is always an excuse followed by playing the victim.
As is dementia.
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I can count on my hands the number of times I locked my garage...and I don't think I did it once a month after I bought my first house. I finally was wondering why I was doing it, and never looked back.
Granted, I don't live in dangerous areas like the Bidens apparently do.
:)
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