I think we are confusing means and ends here.
We all seem to agree about MEANS - violence is never acceptable, whether perpetrated by antifa or the KKK or whoever. And there has been violence on both sides, which is the main point of Trump and his UHND supporters.
Trump critics are more focused on ENDS. The BLM movement's goal is equality (no matter how one feels about their means), while the KKK movement's goal is separation and dominance. That is why people are saying that there can be no moral equivalence here. One side is vile, even if they were totally nonviolent.
So both sides are, to some degree, talking past one another. We might actually agree more than we think.
Thoughts?
(no message)
Don't condemn all violent groups! Only condemn alt-right violent groups!
I'm seeing a pattern.
Yeah, it just oozes from their rhetoric and their prescriptions to correct our civilization. Unreal.
Wait, don't tell me, the feminists want "equality," too, right?
(no message)
You don't have to agree. And obviously you don't have to think they are worthy of equality.
But equality is the goal. And the ends of the movements are what separates BLM from the KKK.
It's a demand for entitlements and a separate set of laws under the weak guise of "reparations."
And it is totally based on the false premise that they bear zero responsibility for their culture's common predicament.
I question that they want equality at all because that has already been achieved through the courts and legislation already.
I am not sure they even know what there goal really is. They are mad, and they want people to know it. They are sick of more blacks being imprisioned and more blacks being murdered, but they blame the police for this
And the problem is certainly not all with the police.
(no message)
"Of course, I too am a privileged white person, but, you see, I am an enlightened white person who is down with the cause!"
Why any of you take this intellectual gnat seriously has been beyond my understanding for some time.
(no message)
Everything from treatment by cops to sentencing to the death penalty.
I doubt I have to cite the stats. You live in this country.
I agree that there has been bad police behavior, and correcting this is definitely a good goal. But there is also some very bad, illegal behavior in large disproportion, and Blm seems to be focused on helping these perpetrators instead of supporting the police who are trying to protect the victims who are most frequently also black.
So some of their goal is noble but part of them is not.
You wouldn't dig into those statistics if your life depended upon it. What sorts of homicides, for instance, are more likely to result in death sentences? I would invite you to examine a racial/ethnic breakdown of homicides involving home invasions, for example.
Man, you know, even worse than the national conspiracy by police, prosecutors and judges to oppress black people, I think we first need to get a handle on the national conspiracy to oppress men, who make up 49% of the population yet make up 90+% of the prison population. How unequal! How unjust! What clearer numerical example of discrimination have we than this sobering statistic!
(no message)
The happiest people I know tend to be fairly dull. One might even say that there is an inverse relationship between those variables.
BTW, you're doing your old argument by assertion, again. To avoid lapsing into it, what you would need to do is cite some specific evidence, like what I ask for in the subject line.
See, I think you do. I think you understand that BLM is a pretty big movement, 99% of which is nonviolent. I think you understand that the movement would have been better off if called itself Black Lives Matter Too, which is what it always proclaimed. Not that white lives don't, which is how it's critics (willfully) misinterpreted.
It's a civil rights movement. Unlike the Klan, which is an anti-civil rights movement.
That's why there can be no moral equivalence.
It is the exact same argument made by segregationists in the 50s. And earlier - Huey Long always said the civil rights movement and the klan were equally violent and bad....as if the ends didn't matter.
That is Trump's moral failure here. And yours.
... for.
This is my understanding of their "noble cause": because a black man was (justifiably) shot by police, we're gonna burn down a predominantly black neighborhood. Given this, a rational person might conclude that their ENDS isn't equality but instead anarchy.
And you are judging the movement by the actions of the fringe.
You should look at what the leaders actually say, not what Fox says about them.
The klan may be entirely worse, but at least they are unambiguous about what they stand for.
I am relatively indifferent.
But millions of people support the movement, and they are not all frauds, surely.
FFS, you started this thread claiming to have an understanding of the "ENDS", now you're indifferent? I assume this went much better for you in class today...
That is what the right is trying to do, and it doesn't hunt for me.
But, BLM and race baiters like them are the bane of the black community IMHO. They also get no defense from me, except maybe that they aren't the klan or Nazies. Pretty low bar.
(no message)
Other than that, they seem like nice people.
(no message)
(no message)
Perhaps you can't do it. I don't know that you know anything about BLM, either. Give us some specific positions they take that are about "equality." See, it's important to know how you define that term because if you define it as BLM does, where, for instance, the number of black folks arrested should be no more than any other group, then it helps us understand how you think they're after positive ends.
Please, professor, give us some specifics and break the through the pattern of argument by assertion.
(no message)
Darn, I'm good.
They want to overthrow the president.
But yes, you are referencing a difference in thinking between cons & libs.
Liberals think that if the ends are noble, the means are justified. Of course they are deciding which are noble ends and which aren't.
Cons think in terms of the actions themselves regardless of the intended Ends.
But regarding those supposed Ends you mention, even if you give BLM the benefit of the doubt on their goal being equality, there is no way you can say that aboutANTIFA is no better than any other hate group.
They wish to take control away from the voters.
The goals of your radicals are not more pure than the goals of ours. They are all repulsive.
and all the others have zip, zero, zilch, nada, bupkis knowledge of what's been happening for the past nine months at these "well-intentioned" protests.
I asked last night and never got an answer: how many Klan members and Nazis do we have in this country? Since this is all about weighing one threat against another, some numbers would be helpful. Surely it's in the millions, given the all the talk about them.
Small group of voters is absurd.
I really don't love Trump as much as it may seem on this board, but I want him to have his chance which they are blocking unlike any president before, and I feel the need to counter their irrational hate.
I believe Southern Poverty Law Center, which should be motivated to exaggerate its size, estimate the Klan at...hold onto something...3,000 members nationally. And the vast majority of them aren't going to be splitting the atom anytime soon.
want us to believe there are many more hiding in the closet.
I am guessing that ANTIFA/BLM outnumber the Nazi/White Supremacist crowd by at least an order of magnitude.
That doesn't lessen the fact that the nazi/WS group arent a bunch of pieces of shit. But let's not act like they are about to take over the country.
is there more latent racism residing in a far greater number of white people; of course there is
Once again though it's a two way street; that latent racism exists on both sides.
We could all learn so much from you, the expert-on-everything.
"Well, you're not!"
Or, if you prefer, professor: "You think you're so smart; well, you're not!"
in congress is doing nothing to bring the country together. When leaders of one party say our job is to resist (yes, the republicans were dicks for not even trying to work with Obama), it's a poor example for the country.
permits to march. They have no other interest than to agitate, sort of like someone burning the American Flag or sticking a crucifix in a bucket of urine. Limiting their exposure and attendance is what is best for all.
The KKK is on the furthest end of the spectrum, antifa is not as severe but they are certainly in the same neighborhood. They have threatened violence against any entity or person that speaks about or represents something to which they don't agree...Ann Coulter in Berkeley as an example. You are mistaken when you say the want equal rights. People pushing for equal rights don't threaten someone just because of their speech. They are using liberal causes to justify their terrorist and extremist ways.
Additionally, there will be broad disagreement about BLM's push for equal rights. What is their request? As you have even commented, there is no easy solution; absent fathers, no jobs, incredible murder rates, etc.) They aren't asking for equal rights, they are asking for special rights, special investments. What's ironic is that the more they demand unique solutions, the more they are saying we're not as good as others.
When violence occurs, both sides are quick to blame a few bad actors. Even when it was clear that everyone was spoiling for a fight.
The frustrating thing with Trump is that this didn't have to be so hard. It's very easy just to say, "we can't have people driving cars into crowds who disagree with them. That is completely unacceptable. We are better than that". He didn't have to get involved with the politics at all. But he is just such a complete asshole that he can't help himself.
However I believe there is a large racist component to BLM/Antifa as well; orders of magnitude less than KKK/Neo-NAZI/White Nationalists.....but because there are far more members of the BLM/Antifa movement it appears as if the racist component is quite large in comparison
How do you justify the racist behavior of the BLM/Antifa crowd?
You do understand racism is a two-way street correct?
(no message)
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8StG4fFWHqg
Torture you? That's a great idea, thanks for thinking of it!
I met Michael Madsen at the Starbucks in Malibu last month. He was just sitting there enjoying life. For some reason and I dared not ask, he was in full on cowboy garb complete with boots and hat.
Absolutely one of the nicest celebrities I've ever met. Really down to earth cool. And yes I still have both my ears but Stealers Wheel's song was playing in the back of my head as I talked to him.
(no message)
(no message)
No big surprise there. And that equivalency needs to be strongly rejected and called out.
Nonetheless, their rhetoric has led directly to the deaths of cops. I don't care what their purported ends are that likely aren't even embraced by half or more of their members. To me they are a domestic terrorist group. They may not be the klan or Nazis, but they are pretty fucking divisive and awful in their own right and the left should do some mirror looking there.
May even result in more intra-racial violence as cops grow reluctant to police certain neighborhoods.
Which is equality, not an end to all violence against blacks people.
the klan and Nazies.
Trying to turn Trump into a racist, that ruins any argument from the left.
(no message)
What % of Trump voters are white racists, dunno? But close to 100% of white racists and their silent believers and followers are Trump voters.
He is the leader of white supremacy America, and without them is likely not prez.
Where has he exploited racism?
Isolationism, nationalism. Come to think of it most of the things that would attract you.
You really think that all racists are the 500 members of the Nazi party? Have you by chance been to a Trump campaign rally?
Wall - Good idea to keep out criminals not done for racist reasons but crime reasons
Mexican rapists - Because that was the subject at the time he has dealt with many Mexicans in his businesses.
Mexican Judge - Isolated incident that he should not have generalized on.
Muslims - not on all Muslims on Muslims from certain countries that have proven terrorist cells.
Immigration restrictions - just part of putting America first, help our citizens first
I find that people who are more blunt act like this in an indiscriminate way that in fact proves they are not racist. Just like Vince Lombardi who treated all his players black or white like dogs. They loved him.
Following immigration laws is racist? Wow. Now calling me racist...wrong on all counts.
With you, if the foo shits.........
And where did I say Islam is a race? I'm saying that your boys are anti Muslim.
Your ilk is why there can be no political discussion. All left wing talking points, no facts.
Just poll your hunting buddies rags. Bet they all are anti immigrant and Muslim.
Keep proving my point..
(no message)
I don't know whether the BLM and Occupy crowd is just better at burning things down (estimates as high as 20 million dollars worth of damage in Ferguson and Baltimore) than the KKK or if there are just more of them.
According to an ADL report, the Ku Klux Klan movement in the United States consists of 42 active Klan groups in 33 states, a slight increase from early 2016's data. The report also found that most groups have less than 25 active members and many of the largest groups have around 50-100 members.
BLM justifies their rioting as follows:
Black Lives Matter’s most prominent leader DeRay Mckesson told UPROXX that the violent actions of the movement’s rioters are justified, since "people take to the streets as a last resort."
"So when I think about anything that happens when people are in the street, I always start by saying, ‘People should not have had to have been there in the first place,'" stated Mckesson.
Specifically prefacing her question with the recent violent and racist rioting in Milwaukee, which she referred to euphemistically as "recent Milwaukee unrest," UPROXX interviewer Kimberly Ricci asked if Mckesson was bothered by the term "riot," as he was apparently partial to the term "protest."
Since many Black Lives Matter’s "peaceful protests" have undeniably turned into vicious riots, where arson, physical violence and chants of death to cops have become staples, Mckesson decided that his best response was to justify the rioters, instead of simply disavowing them and their reprehensible acts.
Obama did it with BLM, '' pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon." Those guys should get no where near the WH or legitimate debate on policing.
Trump is even worse. Nazis, neo Nazis, and the klan? A white nationalist as a top advisor? Acceptance of apologists and equivalentists for these scum, and saying that this event contained some fine people is beyond reprehensible.
(no message)
There can be no moral equivalence about the ends.
I don't agree with you that the black lives matter movement is for equality. As I see it, the movement contains a significant population of anarchists and those with "close to" communist leftist views and values. I will agree that more of the blame falls on the white supremacists with what happened in Charlottesville, however neither side seemed to back down from the videos I watched. I also feel that the far left has instigated most of the violence and destruction of property since before the election, witness University of Chicago, Berkely of course, San Diego where Trump was campaigning, and yesterday in North Carolina, and other locations that I cannot recall right now.
It all sickens me, I have always hated KKK, white supremacists, John Birch Society, leftist anarchists, communists. I also have a strong belief that capitalism while far from perfect, easily is a better system than socialism because it least it gives you the opportunity to choose the direction you want. The most important thing we have as Americans is the right to choose when it does not infringe upon the rights of others. I still want that right and capitalism gives us far more of that than socialism.
You said "I feel we are more respected abroad too." in reference to the good things Trump is doing.
Where do you feel America is more respected abroad under Trump?
Link: Follow up