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Seems like a perversion to me... but we can't use that word anymore.

The Church failed miserably in enabling predators to have access to kids.

Any state will have similar numbers to Pennsylvania.

The Catholic Church is not alone. USA Gymnastics, Penn State, Michigan State, and Ohio State had the same institutional culpability.

Our faith will sustain us. None of the priest abuse stories has ever impacted my faith.

The priests are common predators. Has zero to do with my religious beliefs or outlook.

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non-religious organization. Expect more than that. What has been made public is beyond the comprehension... the mind is unable to fathom what is unknown. The catholic church needs a major change. Matt Walsh wrote an article yesterday that was pretty good in my opinion.

Link: https://www.dailywire.com/news/34503/walsh-there-must-be-purge-catholic-church-and-it-matt-walsh

But, a predator is a predator is a predator.

The rape of a child by a priest, a teacher, a Boy Scout leader, a neighbor, a parent = rape.

The victimization is horrible wherever and whenever it occurs.

To the extent people assert that priest rape is worse than neighbor rape, I disagree.

To the extent people correctly assert the Catholic Church was egregiously complicit in the cover up and perpetuation of rape, I cannot disagree.

It’s supposed to be the bride of Christ.

Of course, it’s worse when it violates that trust.

Plus it a huge institutional organization. It’s failings will always be widespread.

But only the simple minded shouldn’t be able to see that the Church as a man made institution is afflicted by the same problems that impact other religious and secular institutions including wrongful coverup and desire to protect the organization at all costs.

And I agree The Church should lead rather than follow the pack on this. Pray it happens.

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And while there are more good priests than demons as we are defining them in this thread, few speak out about what the current church is. The place needs to be cleaned out.

Have always viewed the Church as my connection to the Holy Trinity, but do not view the Church as my master.

Proud to be Catholic, per the millions of Catholics who reflect Jesus thru their acts of kindness and love on a daily basis.

Priests molesting vulnerable children and pastors, bishops, and cardinals covering up or minimizing the abuse, is certainly 180 degrees counter to Jesus.

Even though the Church, as an institution, is complicit, I don’t lump in Catholicism as being complicit.

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Too tied to the Blessed Mary.

Too tied to my Irish heritage to join a non Catholic Christian gun club.

Too many centuries of bravery and courageous acts of faith by Catholics to ever leave my religion.

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If you accuse all Catholics as enablers then stand accused in your Secular Word where the problem is worse.

We’ll clean up our mess. You get your Secular World in order.

And there is zero evidence that any cleaning is being done.

Feel free to lecture innocent Catholics on your contempt for them.

Shame on the sexual abusers and those who covered up.

But they did not change Dogma. Nor the beauty of The Blessed Sacrament.

I will continue to celebrate The Eucharist in My Church.

With my friends and neighbors, innocent Catholics, and innocent priests.

It is strangely reassuring to know you will never be there.

You will be out eradicating child abuse from the secular world.

Good job. How wise of you to leave The Church.

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Catholic clergy and hierarchy( all the way to the top) is laughable. The Catholic Church is hemorrhaging members at alarming rate because of
these actions. Do better

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widespread.

It doesn’t change the culpability of the Church though. It does show that coverup and protection of the institution is part of any organization and not limited to the Church.

Peds is Peds. Cover-ups is cover-ups. No lessening ANY of those crimes.

ALL must be held accountable.

Large, well intentioned organizations are vulnerable to the predator.

Awareness, vigilance, and criminal justice must be improved by all of society.

Excuse no one.

The institution — whether the Church, the university, the football program, — is given greater protection than the victims and/or prospective victims.

Such institutional culpability perpetuates the abuse.

If your point is that the scope of the abuse in the Catholic Church is far greater than PSU, MSU, OSU, USA Gymnastics, then duh, yes we know. But, in terms of relative access given to the perpetrators, it was more egregious with PSU, MSU, OSU, and USA Gymnastics.

None of that matters to the victims. In all cases, institutional culpability enabled the predators.

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The coverup though at those other places also went all the way to the top as well. The PSU prez at the time is a convicted felon over it.

Comparing the PSU president to the pope is a little much don't you think?

Unless you think there is something magically evil in the church that evades other religious and secular institutions.

Right now, I will bet you the mortgage that there are more child abusers in the public schools than the Catholic Church given Church policy since 2002.

By the way, where was the Pope criticized in the report.

Easy to see why someone like you is attracted to simplistic morons like Trump.

Church has a billion people in it.
Pedophilia is everywhere.
Church is not immune.
Church is not excused.
Nor is society as a whole.

No one gets a free pass.
Blame the guilty.
Blame all cover-ups in and out of the Church.

Do not blame the innocent priests and faithful who are blameless.

while simultaneously spelling out how many mortal sins you constantly commit, has not shaken your faith. None of these guys actually believed one fucking word of what they were preaching every Sunday. Doesn't that make you wonder?

(speaking here of the all-too multitudinous committers and enablers...although I have a hard time believing there was ANY priest who had absolutely no idea this shit was going on).

Either the Triune God is real, or he isn't. I don't think the sins of men affect that reality at all.

1) Estimate a probability that the church hierarchy believes that God exists. You might say 99% ex ante.

2) Learn that thousands of members of this hierarchy committed heinous crimes (or allowed them to continue) in a manner that is directly contradictory to them actually believing that God exists.

Doesn't 2 have to change your estimate of 1? Although this certainly has no bearing directly on whether God exists, it is certainly understandable that these episodes have severely shaken the faith of millions and millions of people. And, really, that is another heinous crime by the church hierarchy that follows directly from the first one. What a mess.


Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference

I totally get what you are saying. When I was an atheist, I would look at all the sinning Christians and think: "Hypocrites." I figured if someone really believed in God, then they would not sin. Seems perfectly logical. And since everyone sinned, well.... Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Even true believers succumb to temptation.

But, don't make the mistake of assuming the choice to sexually assault a child is like a normal temptation. I mean, it has to be different, doesn't it? I have to think that people who harm children are not wired like you (I presume) and I are wired. How can you be sexually aroused when you are coercing someone? Men who can maintain an erection in the middle of an attack have a serious mental problem. That is not normal. Those people are psychopaths in the clinical sense, not the pejorative sense. And, psychopaths are attracted to jobs/positions of power/authority over others, because they enjoy manipulating people...and the Church has positions which are given too much credit by followers. I get that people's faith are shaken when they see a psychopath in priestly garments...but I guess I don't give so much deference to other men, even priests, that I am shaken by that.
Psychopaths are attracted to positions of authority...I understand and accept that non-religious fact of life.

Aside: That is why the more secular authority the Church had (in centuries past), the more power-abusers sought out positions in the Church. The less secular power the Church has, the better. We have improved things by separating church and state, but some types of power-abusers still seek out Church positions so they can play with people.

Our newly assigned priest introduced himself a few months ago: "There are two things you should know about me, he said. "First, I'm a sinner. [Full stop--silence.] Second, God loves me. And, I'm spending my life trying to figure out why, and I hope you will pray for me and help me." Priests are just humans. We need to be diligent around all humans.

Having said all that, yes, this is a mess.

God exists, even if they were adherents of his Church? Numerous human adherents of many religions including my Church have committed far worse atrocities in history. So why do they survive and why do people keep the faith so to speak?

I think it’s because those of faith have it in things that far transcend the human failings of their institutions that are man made. They know that God gives everyone, religious and secular free will to do right or wrong. They acknowledge the failings of man, but that doesn’t shake their faith in that which is of God and not of man. How else do you explain how a religion grew like wildfire when two of Christ’s original disciples, Peter and Judas denied him and betrayed him before his death.

Oh wait, I did.

I was just contradicting Ned's assertion that this should have no bearing on anyone's faith. I think it is quite reasonable for people to have their faith shaken by these episodes.

the point is people of real faith won’t be shaken by the news of human failings in the Church.

Those that are don’t have strong faith to begin with so it doesn’t matter.

That’s the point.

Doesn’t change the revealed truth.

A sick man. Very smart. Very compassionate priest. Did a lot of good things. Never formally charged. Sex with young black guys 17-19 years old. No excuses.

They are in The Church. They are in your neighborhood.
Many bishops covered up. Many families cover up.

All must be held accountable. Everywhere.

smart and compassionate please. Just wondering

The guy was a well educated liberal , articulate and especially respected for his work with the elderly and the dying.

Obviously no excuse.

He died . He’ll stand before God.

I revile the pedophile. I shame those who covered up. But I will never abandon The Blessed Sacrament in communion with good priests and the faithful.

Some of them do simply great heroic things. The vast majority try to be good shepherds.

They are now tarred by the same brush. It’s a shame.

But the Church itself as an ideal will survive this as it has survived countless other failings of its all too human adherents.

There does need to be a significant shake up of the priesthood as an institution to restore confidence though.

For the first thousand years of the Church, priests could marry. The way it is now attracts too high a percentage of perverts and deviates.

These are crisis-level numbers. Things need to change, now, or the religion will whither and die.

Ireland is a warning.

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It is an existential question for the church.

Change absurd rules (that Christ never wanted) or whither and die.

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Be their faults. These monsters groom the weakest and most vulnerable and then use their positions of authority to debase these kids. And then decades of cover up to protect the power and empire.

What about the cops who were told and did nothing.
Or the lawyers in the DA’s office?

Or the people in your secular world who covered up for family members?

No one gets a free pass. The Church. The cops.
Your neighborhood families. No one.

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You cannot be serious.

The Church will never recover if it does not take decisive action.

Look at Ireland. That’s the future, unless it changes.

I don't excuse the priests. Nor the bishops whose bumbling inaction and/ or willful subterfuge is incomprehensible. I understand the purge mentality.
Deal with those who failed. Everywhere.

Do not throw innocent practicing Catholics and priests under the bus.

The Church will survive. Perhaps much smaller and better directed.

God's Will Be Done.

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Defending the Faith is not the same as trivializing the devastating effects of child abuse.

And you know that.

And who continue to take half steps at “fixing” it, to the extent it can be fixed.

How many of those “good” priests knew, for years, and did nothing?

Fuck the whole lot of them.

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You're a fucking lunatic.

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People cannot be continually hit in the face with this horrible news about the clergy. Many are already Catholics in name only. They believe in
God, but no longer trust the church.

Where the problem is just as bad?

Excuse no one. But keep the faith. Most priests are honorable men.

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What the long- term looks like for them. What a tragedy in the eyes of God and man

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This horrendous issue and shows a sinister intent for posting the topic. Other than that have a great Eucharist on Sunday

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I am addressing a monstrous organization filled with a material number of monsters or people that cover for monsters.

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The Priest and People I was with tonight are all complicit in the hideous sins of pedophiles?

Then consider yourself complicit in the sins of the Secular World.

I’ll take my chances with the crew on my ship of fools.

May The Bar Association and the Protestant Church preserve you.

I can't wait for that cardinal in Rome to blame this all on the jews again. Or for the pope to simply ask everyone to pray with no other repercussions.

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The point is the massive coverup that the Church employed institutionally to cover up what was happening on a regular basis by a lot of the same peeps.

But 300 priests in the state of PA going back to the 60’s? Do you know how many priest have served in those dioceses over that 50 year period?

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Just addressing GOAT’s canned support of the Catholic Church no matter what.

I practice my faith. Judas Priests have been in the Church since it began.

Shown to be rotten even to this day.

And for healing and awareness. Over 200 people Lance. But I’m sure you are better than all of us put together.

Leave the Church if you like. Your choice.

We go occasionally to the Prostestant Church where my kids go to daycare. It’s great.

But you’re a lawyer. You know much more than the average Catholic.

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More than the 300 abusers have been complicit in the crime and cover up and looking the other way. And for that matter how many of the congregation and Catholic lay folks are doing the same thing. Tragedy

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A male teacher at his school would you continue to send him to the same school? Would you send his younger brothers and sisters to that school. And the school has the best tradition and an impeccable founder and is known as one of the best academic schools.

Peds are everywhere. Seriously. Awareness is the key.

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