and then demands a five year extension with pay raise at the end of the season. You give it him, or tell him to earn it next year?
I assume he has a yearly pay raise built into his current contract which runs through 2021.
He has said he would like to coach at ND for two more years, through 2023, after his current contract. So the question you should ask is whether he will get his wish or be replaced after 2021 by everyone's flavor of the day P. J. Fleck, the Minnesota Miracle Worker and ND guaranteed national Championship coach in waiting.
Not elite and looking for an up and coming coach then. Why kick the can down the road?
I simply stated the known desire of Kelly, which is not a 5 year extension of his current contract, and interjected the current flavor of the month coaching savior of everyone who wants Kelly gone.
No AD in his right mind would fire Kelly right now, so unless he drops dead he will be the coach through 2021. What happens after that, who can say?
coaching and results. We will also, whenever we make the change have to take the same chance on a relatively unproven product.
What is the difference between now or three years from now?
Which would take him to 2026. Somehow you morphed that into “why not fire him now and hire whomever would be willing to take the job”. Do you want him fired before or after the loss to Navy Saturday?
My point is that it doesn’t matter, 5 more years or 3 more years, or now, the results will be the same from Kelly and we will have to take our chance with an up and comer.
a name for himself at Kelly's expense.
Clemson again in 2022.
And beatdowns by both Ohio State and Clemson in 2023.
but Swarbrick will. BK wins plenty to keep the money rolling in. Scheduling the Syracuse game in NY last year is all any doubters needed to see to know that all Swarbrick cares about is the $.
(no message)
he'd probably still try to control the offense. Other than that, I like it!
offense, ans the plays and play calling.
(no message)
(no message)
Results will be the same as Kelly is what he is after ten years. Not going to change. In 4 years or so, it will be the same 3-4 losses a year average. We will still need to take a chance on someone relatively unproven.
(no message)
Make a run at Fleck... Kelly did his best.17 points in 2 playoff/championship games is the main reason and it is time to get a younger, more relatable leader.
(no message)
Fleck is currently 21-13 for Minnesota, but you think if he loses this weekend he's disqualified from ND consideration?
I don't care if he loses this weekend and in fact, I don't know when, but I expect him to lose a couple games....you know why, because he's undermanned. I don't care about that, I care about that he had a much less talented team take it to PSU and punched them right in the mouth. They won that game because they played better and we're coached better, but eventually their talent deficit will catch up to them. Won't change how well coached his team is though, or the upside that he has shown..
Coincidently this is when ND started moving to the harder academic standards and the 85 scholarship limit. Kelly, under the proposed scenario would end up 33-6 in his last 3 years, but that is just fun with numbers.
I'm all for firing Kelly, but acting like it is some easy decision is silly. Pretending like Fleck, or whatever flavor of the week is going to be the savior has not worked more than it has worked. Hiring a coach is hard. I'd argue significantly harder at ND. So if you are an AD, and a coach goes 33-6 (remember that is the scenario at play) after you came to him and said major changes have to be made, he makes them, the program takes steps, and you then fire him, you better darn well win a title with the new coach in 3 years. Or you are getting escorted out with him.
And maybe you won't jump off the bandwagon when Minny stumbles in these final games, but most will. They'll move to Rhule or whatever coach has a big win that week and almost any of them will come to us with less accomplishments then Kelly did when he arrived. This is why fans aren't AD's, they would fire and hire a new coach each week.
I'd fire him purely because I don't want him to have won more games at ND in the end than Rockne and Holtz. He truly doesn't deserve the distinction. (I think I may literally vomit if I'm watching the game in 2 years and they're announcing that he's about to eclipse Rockne's win record at ND.)
I am not advocating for Fleck or Rhule or whomever, specifically.
It is time for a change. You do your due diligence and get the best guy you possibly can.
Love the people looking for a sure thing...it doesn't exist.
facts n stuff bro..
but he might wear off someday too.
I'm waiting for some mention of Fleck better understanding the "work-life balance." Oh, and "passion."
(no message)
Not my list actually, but I agree with it.
1. PJ Fleck
2. Kyle Whittingham
3. Mike Norvell -
4. Gary Patterson
5. Matt Rhule
6. Willie Fritz
7. Matt Campbell
8. Jeff Brohm -
Do your due diligence and pick the best fit that you can get. I am tired of the inertia that we cant replace Kelly because another coach may do worse.
He might, but Kelly is not getting it done. Why are we so fearful of making a move?
(no message)
Since we ran Holtz out of town and academics were tightened up these are our hires:
Davie
O'Leary
Willingham
Weis
Kelly (who you think is awful)
So the idea that ND is going to make the right hire is sorta silly. No actually, really silly.
Maybe we should fire Kelly, that may be the best thing, but you better damn well hire someone who is going to be better than him. Or else, it may become another era of treading thru coaches.
...life in general.
Kelly has had TEN years. How long is enough?
Maybe we can’t do better. Prove it.
I didn’t say Kelly was awful. He will never get the job done though.
What happened in Michigan was sad...and not because we lost which I considered a real possibility....but how we lost and how Kelly looked doing it...
And finishing 10-3, 12-1, 11-2 (that's the basis of this post) has to play a factor. This directly after the AD made you revamp the program.
Do you really think that's an easy fire for an AD?
I'm all for firing him, if it's for Meyer. But Fleck or whatever name you want to throw out that is less accomplished than Kelly seems less like "not living in fear" and more like "please land on double zero".
And maybe an 8-4 program the last 30 some odd years could use a little stabilising.
However, Kelly is not going 11-2. I’ll eat my hat if he does.
OLeary was only bad from the administrative side of it, he wasn't a bad hire as far as the quality of coach he was.
Davie had ZERO head coaching experience
Ty had limited mediocre HC experience combined with ZERO experience as an offensive or defensive coordinator
Weis only HC experience was one year of HS football
THOSE are bad hires!
(no message)
Haha...so true
Couldn't be more spot on.
(no message)
(no message)
Skip Holtz's Louisiana Tech has won 8 in a row after an opening loss to Texas. Game this weekend at Marshall might be their toughest test on their way to a possible CUSA title.
Admittedly, That's a big "if" of Skip's team winning out, and his record a a head coach is okay but unspectacular, but for sentimental reasons I'd love it if he could become a great coach at ND.
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
he could bomb.
He wouldn't be near the top of my list because his results don't speak to it and presently I feel like he'd only be on the list because of his name.
But I'll tell you this, if Kelly ends up dropping another couple games this season as is his norm and you tell me only choice in the universe is to keep Kelly or give Skip a try, I'd rather let Skip swing the bat to see what he's got because Kelly has already shown us what he has and it ain't quite enough.
My two cents..
That a plus, not a minus, provided that you picked yourself back up again.
nearly lost early in the season to a few non power 5 schools.
(no message)
(no message)
predicted he would bomb miserably at Minn? You're a highly intelligent guy, but the simple truth is there is no sure thing and none of us know who would or wouldn't work out here...all we have is educated guesses and Fleck's results speak volumes.
I get it, you don't like his gimmicky row row row your boat thing... personally I could do without that part myself, but hell if it works is works, and if it works and he runs a clean program that plays great football then I can deal with the boat thingy.
Maybe if you put aside your personal feeling about the gimmick and looked past that to how hard nosed and disciplined all of his teams play, you would be able to envision that caliber of team play but with ND level talent and realize the potential.
He may not be a sure thing (as no one is) but his results can not be dismissed.
Up to this season, he's been entirely underwhelming at Minnesota, below what his predecessor did, in fact.
I don't get you saying his predecessor was better... unless I'm looking at the wrong guy his predecessor was .578 while Fleck is .617 and climbing. But honestly, I don't care as much as his total record there...when I watch his teams they play good sound disciplined football and in my opinion we could use a little of that.
Could I be wrong? Sure, I acknowledge that. Hell I was wrong about Kelly, but at least he was the right type of hire (successful college HC experience) unlike Davie, Ty and Weis...he just didn't pan out but that doesn't mean we should get gun-shy.
(no message)
(no message)
Sweet Buddha, the program is screwed i that resembles the actual one.
(no message)
Who can recite the entire rosters of every team in FBS. Now that's smart.
(no message)
Love the fearful "we can't move on brigade".
Sorry, but that's the realistic list.
You want Kelly to stay here for 30+ like a JoePa? At least JoePa won some big games and a Natty. Its a groundhog day of collapse with Kelly. Continue to enjoy it if you're too afraid to ever move on.
In 2011, I was on here with ChrisB, when he was defending Kelly to the hilt, saying, as I always had, that this isn't the guy.
I'd be thrilled with Chris Petersen. You probably recall over the past weeks that I stated I would be fine with Gary Patterson. When I pointed outKelly is the 75th highest paid coach and that Patterson makes $3 million more at TCU, your response was that Kelly makes much more than his salary. Yeah, guess what? So does Patterson at TCU. And he and Petersen don't have to deal with ND admissions. They ain't coming.
Whittingham's record at Utah is mediocre, particularly since joinging the Pac 12, which itself is pretty mediocre. I'd take him over Fleck, though.
If we're going down to the sorts of names you have on that list, then just go with Skip. He's on course for a double-digit win season at La Tech, and they'll win their bowl game, as usual. It would spare us a coach rowing an imaginary boat on the sideline or bodysurfing, which is surely worth something in the aesthetics department.
the types of coaches who might come here...but guess what...those are the pickings. Like it or not.
Someone is going to have to pick one sooner or later. My vote is for sooner...because Kelly has proven that he ain't it.
that wasn't 2011....woulda had to be 2010. I defended him strongly in 2010 but in '11 after the USF game I was 3/4 off the bus, hell I bashed him for much of 2012 as in my eyes the team was winning in spite of his stupidity.
I started climbing back on after the OU game and started accepting that maybe I was wrong for turning on him, but God's honest truth, he's been burned for me ever since he interviewed with the NFL during our NC prep time. I honestly (even though it may not be rational) wanted him fired after 2012 because of that stunt and nothing he's done since has ever changed my mind about him. So unless you are talking preseason 2011, you have your years (or poster) mixed up.
(no message)
(no message)
Kelly has "yet" to do with nearly 10 years on the job (3 straight 10+ win seasons, 3 straight major bowl bids)....and that's at Washington! Washington < Notre Dame
...a coach that can be that successful at Washington is highly likely to have great success at ND. Remember that one bum we had who won 10 games here and beat a top 5 FSU (I believe @ FSU even) then went to Washington and went 0-12
Let's not forget, Peterson has also WON two major bowls...how many major bowls has Kelly won again?
The only valid point against Peterson is what MAS brings up...he's been rumored for years to be a guy who never wants to leave the West Coast and he doesn't exactly speak pleasantly about Notre Dame, but questioning his coaching ability shows a real lack of knowledge and I'm wording that softly.
(no message)
then you just don't know what you're talking about.
We should all be THRILLED and drop to our knees in praise and thanks to God, if we were somehow able to get Peterson to South Bend, but unfortunately I just don't think it's a realistic possibility.
(no message)
If Fleck fell through and see if i could find the $$$ to change his mind.
a different buffoon, Gerry Faust. Other images spring to mind...the Hindenburg, the Titanic, Ishtar, the Michael Dukakis campaign...
(no message)
Doofus is as Doofus does.
Has resurrected two college programs that are both difficult places to win at...kind of a big difference.
And no I wouldn't have said that to your dad about him, I've long said no coach without college or above HC experience should even be considered for the ND job.
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
after the '14 late season meltdown... going from 6-0 to 7-5 holds a special place in the Hall of Epic Failures.
(no message)
I reject the premise. Very fansy, though.
Make no mistake though that Kelly essentially demanded and got the facility upgrades, and at least some decent recruiting lattitude.
Also make no mistake that had Kelly not at least partially turned things around in 17 and 18, he would have been gone and was told something along those lines after 4-8. Hence, Kelly 2.0
they were in the lines of you will make these moves and you will change in these areas or you will not be head coach at ND. Rightfully, so. What we saw from Kelly the following year in terms of personnel changes and attitude adjustments were not typical moves of Brian Kelly and they were actually for the better, so we know he didn't think of them.
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
Simply emphasizing that both in their own ways were indeed demanding and telling.
Of course your unsupported declaration that it wasn’t how their relationship worked is more convincing.
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
the benjamins.
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
response.
Kelly knows that ND is as good as it will ever get for him, i.e., his rep as a transformational HC is played.
And ND knows (thinks?) that the halcyon days are gone for good, so Kelly is the best they're gonna get.
For the rest of us, that means unsettled dissatisfaction for years to come...
The way I look at it, if we had gotten a new coach prior to 2017 and this new coach had the exact same results, we'd all be saying there's a lot of promise here if only a couple of things were cleaned up. And with recruiting on an uptick, BK deserves a couple more years to see this through.
I still like Kelly 2.0, but it needs to become 2.1 by the following:
- Quit leaving playmakers on the bench because they don't check off all the "traits" boxes
- Either get a new O-coordinator, or tell Long he's got to up his game or he's gone
(no message)
I'm not saying it's okay to wait another 13 years, but yes, I'm throwing out the first 7 years. We basically got a new coach after 2016.
I said at the time it would take 2-3 years to fairly evaluate Kelly 2.0. It's been a measurable improvement. The next step is to win big games on the road and get back into the playoffs. If that doesn't happen, or if 2020 shows some sort of obvious regression, then Kelly 2.0 has had enough time.
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
head coach at ND has an 11-year ceiling. Ara needed a break after 11, so did Lou. So will you. Let's give it one more good run and then it will be time to start afresh with someone new. And we will be forever grateful to you for restoring Notre Dame football's status among the powers," though the unspoken reality is he never quite reached the level of a Dan Devine.
...when Kelly took over we were a joke coming off 3 consecutive terrible hires plus 1 that was probably good but never saw the light of day.
I commend Kelly for what he's done in restoring us to being in the 'looking through the door' phase, he's just not the one to get us over the hump and row us to the throne.
(no message)
(no message)
Devine was handed a Ferrari and just didn't wreck it...Kelly was handed a pinto and expected to win LaMans.
10 years should be enough to modify that pinto (more than enough actually)...but are we so sure if Devine had been handed a pinto he would have still won a title?
or he should be gunned down at a toll both. Either/or.
(no message)
that his Job was to win a National Championship.
Well that South Grand Valley Screen Door Mississippi State Tech A&M at Anchorage, Wyoming has-been, can't even win a Big Game, much less compete in them.
He's had his 10 years, It's time to Move TF on. The Fact that people still Love this Clown, and are OK with just being OK, Blows my Mind. F#CK your 12-0 T-Shirts and great win record against garbage opponents. We want a Title Damn It, at least one, and we want to at least compete in Big Games.
Drop the Dude. He's a great recruiter, and a decent guy. But he ain't never bringing us a ship. He had his Chance. Bye B!+ch.
Now use that money to go get Lincoln Riley or PJ Fleck. And let's GO IRISH. Natty Champs 2022 !!!!
With a few exceptions, he doesn’t do that. Shitting the bed and then quitting against that steaming pile of garbage to the north sealed it for me.
And it's just not the signature game W-L record, it's the embarrassing blowouts with the losses.
Man, I hate those...
...and usually looks clueless at some point while doing it which is an added bonus.
3) No Power 5 program worth taking will hire him. i.e., USC/FSU is just wispy smoke rising from the imagination/PR campaign of his agent.
4) No pro program will hire him.
5) He hasn't done anything worth firing since ND PTB seem to have accepted 10-2 as a highly desirable status.
Kelly has already said he was looking for a 2 year extension which probably makes sense to JS so that is probably what happens.
Whatever contract is worked out, I'm sure there will be lots of the typical safeguards (for both sides).
So unless he desires a "better" lifestyle, he will likely be here for another 4 years.
We're already at the doorstep by allowing his ass to sneak in 10 years...next loss this season and he should be gone unless it's a HIGHLY competitive one in a big bowl vs top 10 competition.
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
or pro program will touch with a ten foot pole?
Yeah, that makes sense.
If they let his contract run out, no recruits worth getting are going to commit to a place where they don't know who the coach is going to be and what kind of systems are going to in place.
Common practice throughout college and the pros.
ND isn't going to fire him because they don't view him as do anything to warrant firing. Kelly will end up being able to walk away on his own to the broadcast booth.
Agree they aren’t going to fire him. Not so sure he gets what he wants with an extension though.
Like I said if you are right that NO decent power five program wants him, we can do at least as well or better with those who are wanted, yes?
(no message)
Not really. But your reasoning.
BK and JS now have a ten-year association. BK has a very good 10 yr record. He has reached the point where he has earned the right to decide when he resigns. If and when he does quit, the buyout goes away and he is paid whatever separation amount his contract contains. I can't see BK demanding any money (or anything else) at this time. JS will reward him as he sees fit and extend him as he thinks is necessary to protect recruiting negatives. Kelly is never going to reach the end of his contract. He will resign first. I don't see him getting fired unless it has something to do outside football. Another 2016 season and BK will resign on his own just like Lou. Don't see that happening either. Also, remember that a good part of his income is from Corbett's endowment of the HC job. Dick's not doing anything.
to the eventual Champion who also dismantled Bama.
Pains me to say but he'd have to be back. I would tell him that he can have an extension because his last three years were good enough to keep his job, but his performance in games on the big stage hasn't been good enough to earn a raise.
I'd lay out the path towards a raise as maintaining the 10+ wins per season trend for at least four more straight years, or 3 of next 4 years "IF" during that same span he had either: 1) won a NC, 2) won a playoff game and played competitively in the NC game and won another major bowl vs top 5-10 ranked team in same span 3) won 2+ major bowls vs top 5-10 ranked teams along with 2 other respectable bowl appearance/ performance and no more than 1 blow out loss and no more than 1 loss to an unranked team during the same span.
Something along those lines and if he didn't agree, I'd tell him thanks for your service, no extension and let him know if in his remaining seasons he failed to meet 10 or more regular season wins, or was blown out by anyone, or lost to an unranked team he would be terminated immediately.
Chickens haven't hatched 'em yet
Kelly wins out and wins a shit bowl (ie, what if Kelly goes 11-2)...context man, context.
I won't be surprised one bit if he loses to Stanford and if he does that should be the nail in the coffin regardless of the score.
Once Kelly losses 2 in a season...he loses more...
And Texas if we get them in the woods bowl ain’t that great.
The final score was great, that stat lines are great...but watching that game it didn't look like we were doing anything special (other than not playing as poorly as we did vs VT) it looked more like we just weren't messing up and our level of competition wasn't playing very well.
In my opinion, just playing like we did last week doesn't have us coming out of this season cleanly. Hope I'm wrong but I still thing two more losses minimum is likely.
try to take it as VT tried the week before.
I saw things we were doing that were working, but against stiffer competition would have been more repetitive 3 and outs at cyclic rate.
I loved that we won and what the final score was, but I wasn't thoroughly impressed with our performance.
IF he finishes at 10-2 I think he gets a better bowl game and better opponent than that. We will see of course.
(no message)
(no message)
I'll be very surprised if we don't lose two more this season and if we have anything less than a 10-2 regular season, vs this schedule, he should be fired this year and we go in hard after Fleck.
(no message)
(no message)
(no message)
Is he a sure thing? No but no one really is...I think his style of football is exactly what we need here. PSU came in with a top ranked rush defense and instead of cowering from it, he intelligently attacked it and when they adjusted to preserve their precious run stopping persona he hit em with the big passing plays.
Everything about how they played, when you picture more talented players doing it, sings big time success...
(no message)
One of my partners is a real good friend of Rhule. Really like the guy and think he would succeed, but it’s a big gamble. Fleck is more of a known commodity.
(no message)
Stupidest moves ever.
They actually thought they could create a new Rockne-esque legend.
recruiter, and a very good coach. He’s proven that so far unlike Gerry.
Gotta say though that Fleck would be safer choice.
P.S. He can also tell some funny stories about Herman.
And the make it or break it game would obviously be Clemson. That's a must win.
Plus no more than 1 loss & it better not be a blow out & not to a team ND has NO BUSINESS losing to (like Western Michigan, Duke or GT)
another 5 years of mediocrity. I mean come on is he going to be better in year 12?
of inbound and outbound athletes that fit your system and what not, but Year 6, with a Roster that was freaking Loaded against THE Weakest Schedule in the last 20 years. 4-8. FTD
Bullshit.
Tired of being Charlie Brown and having the ball pulled away every time just as we go to kick it.
He benefits from being preceded by the three stooges. And the fear that we can go back there. I admit it's a possibility but life is risk...and this is its own torture and equally embarrassing if in a different way.
Had he immediately followed the successes of Holtz, I believe he would already be gone, likely after the 2014 - 2016 stretch..
(Remember that 2016 followed his last extension. Swarbrick should have fired his ass just for making him look like a fool as AD that year...but the buyout was huge because he was early in an extension...and ND had just finished with the embarrassment of paying that fat con man Weis $19 million in December of 2015...for a close loss to USC in 2005.)
The 2021 class is already 7 deep and they currently only have a guarantee of Kelly coaching them for a year.
Under your scenario I don't see any way he isn't given an extension and a nice raise.
For the anti-Kelly crowd, then you might as well learn to love him because he's gonna be here for a bit.
What I think is is more interesting would be if ND drops another regular season game.
Swarbrick would have to extend or fire.
Likely he extends. perhaps without a raise? Perhaps with outs? Does that force Kelly to look around?
If Swarbrick extends 9-3 Kelly with a nice raise, then that tells us all we need to know. We better for hope for Kelly 3.0.
decision, but it shouldn't. It's not like he's putting people in the pros like Saban. I'd also like to think whoever ND would get to replace him would be exciting enough to keep all commitments.
Recruiting is not going to be easy when your head coach is only under contract for a year. Regardless of how much some think Kelly is a bum, he is a well respected coach amongst recruits, parents, and high school coaches.
When going toe to toe with other schools, it will be a tough sell to send your kid to ND not knowing what the situation will be in 12 months. I think it's silly to suggest otherwise.
Not quite the same, but close.
Like, we are working on an extension, gonna be here a long time.
But I think the shorter that length gets, I'm sure the more concerning it becomes for recruits and the harder for those promises to be believed.
for improved performance? Yes. That's also where Jack has to be smart and have his cards ready to go.
I just think if you are going to keep him, it's only fair to give him the proper amount of fire power to have success. Which would be needed for recruiting.
If you aren't going to do that, just fire him because you obviously don't have the confidence in him.
(no message)
The current state of ND football is better than it has been in 30 years. That was a different era.
Kelly has run a reasonably clean (though far from perfect) program.
He is a good, maybe even great coach. Probably in the top 10% of active coaches. He is not, in my opinion, in the top 1%.
As long as he keeps winning 8 or 9 games per year, and graduates his players, he likely has the ND job for as long as he likes. I personally wish there were higher aspirations for the football program, but they don’t ask my opinion.
On one hand, he has raised the level of play but cannot win the big games on the big stage with any amount of regularity - lets say one game every two years - just not good enough.
On the other hand, who do you get that keeps at least this level of play and better? The answer is - no one will take the job, none that could raise the level of play and recruit as well
as this staff has been doing the last several seasons. ND has too many restrictions on it's student athletes and athletic programs in comparison to other topflight schools.
ready to go.
(no message)
then go hire the best one you can...and if he don't work, wash rinse repeat
he's proven incapable of producing. If, for some reason, ND beat a top 10 opponent in a New Year's Day Bowl, I might be willing to allow him to earn an extension next year.