Concerning our offensive style and QB play and that of OSU.
There has been a lot of posting about Saban speaking of changing his philosophy when Urban Meyer revolutionized the game with RPO's and related plays that allow blockers to get downfield and throwing the ball behind the line. I've always thought the OSU model best suited ND. Not that it is better than what Alabama does, just that it suits our personnel and has the highest floor for us as a program. Then, I got to thinking of how another poster on this board once mentioned that OSU QB's don't turn out in the NFL. Yet, they are amazingly productive and successful at the collegiate level. Lastly, I got to thinking of the last post about whether you'd attend ND if you were a top rated high school QB prospect. I replied to that post that we seem to ruin elite QB recruits.
So, my question is whether our QB's (and team) would be better served with the OSU model that seems quite a bit simpler. Power running game that is very difficult to stop along with RPOs and zone read. That will get OSU 10 wins a season on its own. In the bigger games, open it up a bit and show them stuff they've never seen and include more QB runs. Nothing overly complex or difficult. Something easier for our QB's to handle.
It's obviously worked very well for OSU...winning the championship in 2014 and making 4 playoff appearances, finishing in the top 6 in each of the last 7 years and in the top 3 in four of them.
Replies to: Concerning our offensive style and QB play and that of OSU.
The offense is a reflection of the HC and OC.
Posted at 12:22 pm on Apr 1, 2021
Kelly and rees have yet to display elite thinking.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyxw3-IVD_c
Or the AD, Alvarez sets the identity for the Wisconsin program and hires accordingly
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Or the athletes recruited, or the school restrictions, or the degrees offered, or ... But I do
agree with you on the AD otherwise bk would have been gone a couple of years back for not getting them over the hump.
rees could have been thrown out of school as an undergrad.
Posted at 12:57 pm on Apr 1, 2021
Clearly, Carlo Calabrese's "people" took care of him...
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Tom has never done anything to suggest he’s an elite OC or QB developer.
Posted at 7:02 pm on Apr 1, 2021
He has been arrested. He QB’d ND to a historically humiliating defeat against Tulsa.
Those are facts.
U need a time out
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For telling the truth?
Posted at 8:35 am on Apr 2, 2021
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Harsh reality, ND isn’t developing, scheming, and recruiting well enough at the QB position
The most important position in football. Once they fix this issue and it can be fixed, they’ll begin to become a hard out for the tier 1 teams and may prove to be one themselves.
Until then, they won’t have the fire power the way the modern game is played and officiated.
The optimist in me thinks there are solutions in place on the roster that can change this outlook for the better.
I believe we have our quarterback and great receivers. We can win it all. We do need to improve in
recruiting, which looks to be happening.
Recruiting at ND has been pretty steller relatively speaking over Kelly's tenure. Roster management
not so much, but plenty enough talent has been here to have been at this level or better faster than we actually have.
Stellar?
2021 - 9th rated class
2020 - 18th rated class
2019 - 15th rated class
2018 - 10th rated class
2017 - 10th rated class
2016 - 15th rated class
2015 - 13th rated class
Yep. Relative to the talent that was coming to ND before BK; it's stellar indeed.
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I don't agree. We have been lacking at defensive end and defensive line is only now steady, but not
championship level. Linebackers overall have not been high enough quality. One exceptional linebacker doesn't compare to Alabama having 3 five star linebackers. I believe we have the offensive line talent, receivers, tight ends, but need to have shut down corners, better linebackers, better quarterback play and more depth at safety. I am hopeful that recruiting will continue to improve as we have better recruiting coordinators. This is obviously just my opinion.
Why does everyone over look the word RELATIVE. ND was piss poor talent wise pre-Kelly. Terrible for
a solid decade other than a hit here or there. Kelly's recruiting is relative to what was at ND and has drastically improved the program relative to where it was. ND is not going to be Alabama in anything unless they decide to put the money behind the program and also play in the same shade Alabama does.
It's exhausting to hear the constant "we aren't at the ALA, OSU, and Clemson level". The school has not committed to what it takes to play at those levels. That's just what it is. I don't blame them either, but those schools operate in a less than ethical part of the system. For ND to compete they'll have to decide to go there.
Nor at WR.
Posted at 12:06 pm on Apr 1, 2021
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I don’t really subscribe to that theory
ND is recruiting and developing really well at receiver. Tremendous when you factor in TE’s. Could it better, of course. And when Alabama is doing what they’ve done, it’s hard to not be discouraged.
However, last year was a bit of an anomaly. Their top two WR’s didn’t play.
WR’s are capped by QB play and scheme. As originally posted, the QB play has not been good enough. It’s detrimental to WR’s.
I would argue that they are not recruiting the QB's.
Dayne Crist was a head case, and he panics in the pocket when pressured. Kizer had a good year and left early against advice of the staff. These are the only higher tier QB talents that we have had under Kelly which is ridiculous for a place like Notre Dame.
Recruiting has been sorely lacking for sure. Perhaps development is an issue as well, but the sample size is small, and there is the notable exception of Ian Book who had marginal talent but was coached to the top of his ceiling.
Our present QB coach has only worked with Book which was a positive result given his physical talent. We need a larger sample size of actual High Tier 1 QB's to know.
.
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Agreed
I also agree there is a good chance that between Coan, Clark, Pyne and Buchner...one will pan out to be a top level player.
The one NFL-quality QB Kelly had (Kizer) was wasted with 2 horrible defenses. Now that ND seems to have the rest of the roster solidified, hopefully when it gets its next NFL QB it can make the jump.
I think that's the problem, Kelly has been getting good QB recruits, and everyone's hoping they
develop into great players. We've seen it a few times with Quinn, Golson, and Kizer, but then we've seen average recruits like Book and Rees outplay their rankings as well, but still leaving a lot to be desired.
I think the fact that we got Clausen and Crist not too long ago has many of us asking why we can't get top QB recruits again.
Meyer's entire offense is built on a #'s advantage. His inside zone read sucks in the FS which
allows OSU to have lots of over the top TDs with a wide open WR. A bear front always gives Meyer's offense fits. It's largely a one-read offense with great athletes. He wants the ball in the hands of the best athletes and finds ways to make that happen. It is my belief that Field's will be a bust in the NFL given where he will be drafted.
My observation is that Kelly's offense doesn't leverage the zone read play as much as it should, so the FS rarely has to come up for run support. That limits the deep ball. Kelly's offense, in my eyes, really is more like USC's without the perimeter athletes or huge-armed QB. There are some great pieces, but I don't think his weak-armed QB recruiting matches up with WR's that typically have larger bodies that aren't as quick in the short passing game.
Kelly also seems to run a more west-coast like spread. Mostly lateral very little vertical and very
little RPO. It's really hard to even call it the spread because it's very predictable and still mostly up the middle / off center.
Kelly's downfall on O is he doesn't get the ball in playmaker's hands and it seems even with various offensive coordinators they pre-select on a weekly basis who they are going to feed the ball come hell or high water. While it sounds good in theory, doing this leaves no room to take what the defense gives you, and over the last decade, this strategy has more often than not left ND very one-dimensional on the offensive side of the ball.
Kelly is just not as creative on offense as he was hyped to be, and his model is stuck in the past. Saban was the same way but changed just after the true spread took over. He has continued to dominated CFB by CHANGING with the game, not telling the game to F'off this is how I'm going to do it... a'la the Brian Kelly way. 10 wins a year and just almost... that is good for modern day ND, but definitely not good enough to win the damn thing in today's game. If you can't score at will you can't win in today's college game. Just facts. Doesn't matter how much wishful thinking you put on D or running the ball. The goal is to put it in the endzone and today that means getting your talent the ball in space and letting them play. Kelly is way to technical for this level of football when it comes to that. There is no "right" way to play the game in CFB. Take ball, put it in endzone... score points... win.
QBs matter but in college not so much. You need an athlete that can run and be accurate more often than not. Hence OSU success will not putting out a QB worth a dang. Kelly isn't paid to put QBs in the NFL. He's paid to win college football games and NCs. That requires a QB that can play the game on the CFB level, not the NFL level. See Auburn under Nick Marshall when they went to the NC game. Terrible QB, converted safety but he ran Malzhan's offense extremely well and Malzhan runs more of an Oregon-style spread which is predicated on run first, at least in their hayday under Chip Kellly.
Olave & Wilson or Smith Waddle & Metchie? We need elite WRs. Smith's most explosive plays were
often made on relatively short passes for example. To your earlier post, Charlie did recruit a handful of elite receivers who combined w/an accurate QB to light it up.
Clausen didn't have a great deep ball in general (which hurt him as a pro) but his accuracy on the short and intermediate routes was tremendous.
Crist might have developed sans a pair of knee injuries, but the cupboard was pretty bare when Weis left. Rees, Hendrix & a 3d guy who never saw the field.
Kelly's first QB Golson was very good until he wasn't. Malik could not beat him or Kiser out. Kiser should have stuck around. Wimbush might have
been the most explosive athlete on the field but never looked comfortable as a QB.
Book needed a couple of elite WRs, and too little mention was made that our 3 projected starters were injured almost all year.
A big part of success this year rests on whether Austin and Lenzy finally have big seasons, whether Johnson gets his life sorted or one of the frosh is great from the go.
It’s not about the receivers.
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This board tends to wish for what they don't have. The overall offensive strategy doesn't match what
is and has proven to work very well for championship teams in the modern game. That is the problem much more so than a specific offensive unit.
Until that changes we will likely see the same outcomes without a streak of luck here or there.
I would love to have a Will Fuller every year
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We've recruited guys much higher ranked than Olave. And higher than Smith and Metchie.
Olave was a 3 star on both Scout and Rivals. He was ranked around 400 on Scout. Jordan Johnson was ranked as high as any of those three mentioned.
So, what's the problem? I don't think it's Kelly's evaluation of recruits. If that's the case, it must be development, poor QBs or scheme. Or a combination of those three.
Last year? Availability of our best talent
Austin, Keys and Lenzy were banged up pretty badly, and none of them saw significant playing time. Those guys were counted on to stretch the field vertically, and without the three best receivers being available, we had no choice but to turn to the next tier of players.
That being said, Javon McKinley turned in a reasonably good performance as WR1, and Ben Skowronek did come through in the clutch as a WR2, but neither were the type who could get enough separation from opposing defensive backs. Avery Davis did a good job as WR3, and was about as fast of a receiver as we had available, but he's not exactly a speed receiver.
Opposing defenses didn't have to respect the long ball, and instead simply squatted on the short and medium routes. At least it wasn't as bad as 2013, where Tommy Rees' only reliable throws were the short passing game. Opposing defenses didn't even have to respect the medium range passing game...
Well sure. That's not a recruiting/talent issue though.
We've had and still have talent at WR. Tough to plug in freshmen for your top 3 though.
Sure, though only Johnson was a Wilson, Waddle or Smith level recruit & he needs to hump his shit or
ride pine. Austin was pretty highly ranked but again off field actions prevented game action, followed by an injury.
Claypool and Boykin were terrific and like Olave were not adored by recruiting services.
Part of it is scheme (Longs route's were simplistic), last year was injury based ie. Austin, Lenzy and Keys were out
which probably increased Book's risk aversion.