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The guy is a professor at Harvard - that pretty much automatically means he is an egotistical asshole. And it's not like the cops beat the crap out of him. Unfortunately.

But why anyone cares about this I have no idea.

The prof does seem like an asshole and he didn't seem to be severely mistreated. Was there PC for a Disorderly Conduct arrest? Don't know all the facts, so unlike the Prez, I won't comment. It is an area though were the officer will generally have some discretion. Normally, they will warn they guy and if he keeps it up, he gets the bracelets, white or black. It's only an issue that a lot of people care about because Bam's stupidly made it one, when he should have just finessed the question and said he can't comment because he doesn't have the facts.

No offense intended.

My only concern is the treatment the police officer received before B.O. called to apologize.

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...'what a wonderful woild'

both of their faces? Effectively, the president is endorsing racial grievance politics. That is kind of a big thing.

Affirmative action at the government level.

Many of Bam's critics say that his decision making is racially tinged. I'm not sure that I buy that he is anything more than a traditional big government liberal. Time will tell. Another criticism is that he hastily pushes his agenda without considering all of the facts and potential negative consequences of what he's doing The Gates comments play into these stereotypes. It will be interesting to see if this is just a tempest in a tea pot that blows over quickly or if it does any damage to his standing with the public.

Chris:

It would have been old news by now but for Obama sticking his foot in his mouth. Using the bully pulpit is a good thing except when you reach conclusions on matters in which you don't know the facts.

Tom

I don't know the facts. I don't know what happened. But the cops were stupid.

Seriously?

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He thought he'd better answer the question, and came up with a dumb comment. Lesson learned, I'll wager.

Maybe it'll go away in a few months. It beats Michael Jackson death coverage, I suppose.

.... if anyone thinks that race isn't a factor in policing, then you're living on another planet.

And I know what I'm taking about on this, ..... trust me.

Ask yourselves how many times you've been pulled over for not using a turn signal and then had your car searched.

Never???? Jeez .... that's amazing. You're really missing out on all the fun.

"Ask yourselves how many times you've been pulled over for not using a turn signal and then had your car searched."
Uh, Counselor, if you'd like to peruse my records for vehicle searches during traffic stops of white vs. all others, you'll find a ratio of about 8:2. If you'd like to see how many actually had drugs on said searches you'd see a ratio of abut 5:4 is that racial profiling?

I understand there is some racial bias in law enforcement, just like there is racial bias in attorneys. Don't tell me you've never heard of an attorney turn down a black man's case. There is racial bias in every walk of life. I just hate when people pin it all on law enforcement like it never occurs anywhere else. Not saying it's ok, just saying it's out there.

No need to assume anyone's addressing you, in the same manner it never crosses my mine that "lawyers are scumbags" applies to me.

Thought you should know.

I brought up my records simply because I know mine are typical of those who search cars in my community.

K9:

As the District Attorney for the Eleventh Judicial District I was once referred to as the chief law enforcement officer of that District.

In New Mexico you have to have a reasonable, articulable suspicion to stop a vehicle. An Officer, for good cause, can order the occupants out of the vehicle. An Officer can perform a limited protective sweep of the car's interior for Officers safety. If the driver is arrested on a warrant or on probable cause then the Officer can do an inventory search of the entire vehicle. The Officer can also secure the vehicle and can obtain a search warrant based on probable cause.

Where we live the Officers will make an effort to search a vehicle if it is being occupied by meth users or if they believe the defendant is a gang member. A gang member is defined as four brown skin guys standing on a street corner.

Tom

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are the issues in this situation.

The free press asked the President a question, and he gave an answer.

The press asked a question. The prez answered: I don't know the facts. But the cops were stupid. That's a damn stupid thing to say.

...a carload of whites in a black neighborhood or vice versa -- all things considered on the average? We look the other way when whites get beat up or hassled in the wrong neighborhood because they were in the "wrong neighborhood". OTH, the opposite case is racism run rampant. Just sayin.

And, your comments have not a wit to do with this case--read the account that the black officer accompanying Crowley gave today essentially saying that Gates was at fault. Objectivity I say.

I've really never seen any criminal, black or white, excused from a charge of battery on the theory that the victim was in the wrong neighborhood. And I've never seen anyone openly advocate any such justification.

Beyond that, are you actually saying two wrongs make a right? Maybe I read too much into your contradistinction. It kind of sounds like a justification.

"hate" crime. When a group of black kids beat up a white kid, the "hate" crime label somehow is non-existent.

If true, is it ironic?

for beating up a white person. I'm willing to wager that you can find 1000's of cases where whites are charged with hate crimes for beating up blacks.

when that Akron hate crime case was in the headlines, I came across an article about FBI statistics for hate crimes. I recall a respectable percentage of those charged being minorities. I'll track the info down and link it to the board when I can.

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FBI hate crimes statistics, 2007. Of reported racial hate crime incidents:

69.3 percent motivated by anti-black bias.

18.4 percent motivated by anti-white bias.

I actually read something with a narrative analysis in addition to raw statistics. I'll see if I can dig it up.


Link: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/incidents.htm

Every time I hear about a case, it's always a person of color crying foul. Thank you for the info.

I agree with the notion that minorities cry racism too much. I hear it all the time from clients. I'd say only a small percentage is merited.

One of the consistent problems with improving race relations in our country is the simple fact that minorities are often treated differently by police. We (middle-class, uppper-middle-class, wealthy) white folk like to ignore it. If we're safe in our houses and our neighborhoods, and if it doesn't happen to our kids, it's easy to dismiss. But it's salt in a wound for people on the other end of it.

This isn't meant as a knock on cops. In my work, I've come to know a lot of police officers. I like most of them. They have a tough job, and I respect the hell out of it. But I think all them would admit they will treat the 19 year old black kid in the neon differently than they'll treat me on the road. You're right, conor. I've never been pulled over for a minor traffic infraction and subjected to a search. But I have personal knowledge of that very thing in hundreds of instances. I can't think of one that involved someone "like me."

I won't weigh in on the Gates thing specifically, because I don't know what happened. I don't know if race was a factor in that case or not. Maybe it was just a bunch of circumstances. Someone made the call. The police responded. They investigated. The homeowner felt he was being mistreated due to race. It blew up from there. I don't know.

So what you're saying is that each and every single time a black man, woman or child is arrested they should scream racism because police have used race to profile.

You seem to be brighter than this, conor.

BTW, RU aware that when a carload of white kids is cruising through Washington Heights, the police pull it over and search it because those white boys aren't usually seen in those parts?

Now excuse me while I attend a real pig roast, instead of the political pig roast Obama has gotten himself caught up in. Seriously, conor, you should write Bams and insist that he stick to the TelePrompter.

Off the cuff = baaaaaaaaaad. From the TelePrompter = gooooood.

Great orator.....but not so smart.

"BTW, RU aware that when a carload of white kids is cruising through Washington Heights, the police pull it over and search it because those white boys aren't usually seen in those parts?"

They do not cruise. They only come here to buy Honda car parts and learn how to hook up hi-fi set ups in SUV's to shake buildings apart.

Maybe it's time to attend your pig roast.

Let the volleyball come to you. BREATHE.

You are ready to excuse behavior and actions because of history. Perhaps you may want to cogitate on that a bit, dear barrister.

That guilt is overbearing, ain't it?

Is racial profiling a problem? Yes!

Gates wrongly used this moment to push forward an agenda. By doing so, he has waylaid all others who accurately claim racial profiling as an injustice. Now those claims will be suspect just because this man cried wolf on the national stage. Gates is irresponsible and his word is Mud.

Profiling is a problem?

So what about, say, ELAL Airlines? The Israelis profile the living shit out of everyone getting on their airline, and what do you know, they haven't had a plane hijacked in 40 years.

Jim,

I think while you bash profiling as a discriminate practice when patrol cops use it, you'll also point to the ridiculousness of people like TSA screening the 90 year old grandmother at the airport terminal. Why in one instance would it be discriminate using profiling, and in another case completely legitimate? In both instances they are using a statistical tool to best serve and protect the safety of the public at large.

Isn't it also discriminatory for FBI "Profilers" to be utilized when tracking down serial killers, who tend to be white, educated, men in their 30's?

The use of profiling gets stigmatized when used by the police because it just so happens they're profiling demographics happen to be minorities who were highly discriminated against in the past.

we (community leaders) hide behind divisive rhetoric and stupid obvious "fairplay" justifications.

The police didn't profile Gates, they responded to a call about a break in. A call by one of Gates neighbors. The Police did nothing wrong in responding to the call.

I would hope not.

The unresolved issue is whether they were right to arrest him. I don't know. It is hard for me to imagine circumstances under which someone could lawfully be arrested for disorderly conduct in their own home for acts done after the police arrived. So I'm skeptical of the arrest. Not making a judgment at this point. But I'm looking for more info. Of course, even if the cops wrongfully arrested the man -- it doesn't mean race had anything to do with it.

Many questions remain. For me.

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Regardless of how the issue was raised, it's an issue worth talking about.

That's the way I took it, which is why I was willing to discuss it.

I don't agree with you on the Gates wayling others issue. Nobody is listening as it is when people rightly claim racial bias/profiling. If anything, Gates situation will bring some attention to the issue. IMHO.

As for whether Gates is "accurate" in his claims -- I don't think you know. I certainly don't.

is exactly why race is a crutch for so many in this country.

That's what I don't get. It seems as though as soon as this story broke, everybody knew whether race was a factor. A bunch of people knew it was (including Obama), a bunch of others knew it wasn't. I don't know. I'm not assuming one way or the other until I know more.

Beyond the materiality of race in Gates's case, I still submit that the issue of racial bias/profiling is a worthwhile topic. I hope people are willing to look at it after the Gates hoopla dies down.

a black person is arrested. In fact, Gates is doing exactly the opposite of what someone in his situation should be doing - he should be acting as a role model. Instead, the message is given to the black community - cry racism when trouble comes your way. And Obama ain't helping that.

This is the equivalent of having an argument with my wife. Every wrong for the last 10 years is rehashed. Sometimes, you just have to deal with the issue at hand.

I agree that people shouldn't raise racial bias when it doesn't happen, and it shouldn't be "raised everytime" a minority is arrested. I'm not justifying Gates if he made a false claim of racism. So, please don't misunderstand. I'm saying the issue on its own merits is worthy of discussion. Set Gates aside. Take him out of the picture. It's a worthwhile topic, IMO.

That said: I don't know whether Gates is completely wrong or not. Obviously, you've made up your mind. I haven't. The black cop said Gates "was acting more strangely than he should have," and that he "supports his fellow officer completely." That resolves nothing in my mind. Unless I'm mistaken, the charge of disorderly conduct has been dismissed.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I have a hard time imagining circumstances in which someone should be arrested for disorderly conduct based upon strange behavior in their own home after the police have already arrived. You're in Illinois, right? Read the case law about disorderly conduct and the police.

I

that every time a black guy gets arrested, it is racial profiling. That is wrong.

There are a bunch of people in this country who assume every claim of racial bias is true. That's true. And there are a bunch of people in this country who assume every claim of racial bias is false. That's true too. And that's part of the problem. Take the Gates thing. Most people don't care what actually happened. As soon as the story broke, they took which ever side fit the political camp they are in. Be truthful, Tonto: You've assumed Gates is wrong and the cops were right from moment one. Correct?

There is a presumption in this country that everytime a black guy gets arrested it is racial profiling. Just look at the board. A majority of people who have weighed in on this issue clearly didn't make that presumption in this case.

the pres stepped in and I knew it was a Jesse Jackson type media event as opposed to a situation where an actual black guy on the streets gets screwed. There are the blacks living this problem and there are the blacks profiting from this problem, and rarely the two shall meet.

Behavior is all important here. I think we all know.

Giving Gates leeway in his story is a good thing, but is it being fair to those who had to listen to his bellyache? I don't think so. He, by his position, brought this to the national stage and should be held responsible. He won't and that is a problem.

A misbehaving child is sent to their room for time to cool down. A misbehaving Black Prof is glorified and that is detestable.

Racial profiling is something that should be recognized in all communities and worked on. In NYC it is a major issue at times, but the leaders in our communities would rather point fingers at wrong doers instead of working on correcting the problem. Gates attention to this was not done well and will only make matters worse for all.

A misbehaving child is sent to their room for time to cool down. A misbehaving Black Prof is glorified and that is detestable.

What are we talking about? I think we need to be careful here. There is a difference between what you or the police might call misbehavior and breaking the law. I don't know, at this point, whether Gates's reaction justified his arrest. Maybe you know more than I.

As for Gates's glorification: Seems to me he's being villified plenty too. Just depends on who you listen to.

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Specifically, misbehaving.

but I think Jim's interpretation of misbehaving is Gates' acting like a pompous asshole to the police.

There is no justification for arresting the guy for disorderly conduct. Acting like a pompous asshole toward police in your own home isn't, and shouldn't be, an arrestable act.

Before anyone jumps: I don't know that is all Gates did. I've accepted the notion presented to me for the purpose of this post. Gates may well have done something more.

The police had every right to arrest him for disorderly conduct. Read the police report.

So please explain it to me.

and Gates was definitely being "disorderly" and uncooperative with the police officers during an investigation. His belligerent behavior was justification enough. The officer wanted Gates to step outside and Gates' response was, "Ya, I'll speak with your Momma outside."

Gates should be happy that the police responded the way they did. If it were me, I would have shown my ID rather than raise a ruckus. Gates deserved what get got and no apology is merited!


Link: What a dumb ass

I'd expect that case to be thrown out of court. Not surprised it was dismissed.

It isn't against the law to be disorderly or uncooperative with the police. Belligerent behavior isn't enough to support an arrest. A criminal charge of disorderly conduct requires much more. The fact that the officer asked to take the matter outside, thus taking it to an arguably public place, is absurd.

If the report is accurate: Gates acted like an idiot. I don't feel sorry for him. But that ain't a crime.

How it appears to me: Gates acted like an asshole, the cop overreacted in arresting him, and race had nothing to do with it (except for Gates's assumptions).

was invited outside, he became more and more belligerent. The officer was well within his rights for the disorderly conduct arrest. He could have charged him with disturbing the peace too. From all accounts the guy was screaming insults at the top of his lungs. What's absurd by calling his front porch a "public place?" Definition of a public place: "an area or place that is accessible to all citizens." A front porch is accessible to all citizens even though it's on private property.

Impeding an ongoing investigation? He wasn't charged with obstructing justice.

Disturbing the peace? I doubt that is a distinct charge in that jurisdiction. There is no such thing in Illinois. It's covered by disorderly conduct.

It isn't a crime to be obnoxious or belligerent. The facts set forth in the report would be laughed out of court in my jurisdiction. I kid you not. And, lest we forget, the charge against Gates was dismissed.

My point about taking the matter outside: If public place is part of the offense in that jurisdiction, the guy was not in a public place while being belligerent, originally. The cop asked him to go outside where he would be in a public place. That's seems crappy to me. That's what I'm saying. The investigation was over. Here's an idea: Leave. Walk out the door and don't ask the guy who is pissed out to "take it outside."

If the police report is accurate, Gates acted like an idiot. I don't feel sorry for him. By the same token, he committed no crime. If the police report is accurate, I'm sure of that much.

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Not sure I agree. But if we are talking deserved as opposed to what the law provides for, I won't debate this point with you. A lot of times people who shouldn't be arrested deserve a comeuppance. Sometimes they get it.

After I read the arrest report, I felt that Officer Crowley was in the right 100%. Gates fucked up and should have cooperated.

Cases like that get dismissed all the time. I've seen plenty. I rarely see police reprimanded. Certainly not publicly. The absence of a reprimand tells me zero about the validity of the arrest. And, for what it is worth, I don't think there should be a reprimand. The officer made a judgment call. If the report was correct, he didn't just arrest the guy for no reason. I don't know that it calls for a reprimand when an officer doesn't stick to fine lines in the law. One thing you have to understand about disorderly conduct: It's shockingly broad in its terms. Which is one of the reasons there is a lot of case law limiting its application.

Whether Gates should have cooperated is open to debate. If you feel the Officer was in the right, that's fine. That's your opinion, and I think it a reasonable opinion. Obviously, we don't have the same sensibilities on issues of the police conduct and civic obligation. Which is fine. I agree with a lot of what you say. Based on the police report, Gates acted like a jackass. He could easily have avoided all the drama with a little common sense. I understand why the officer would be aggravated by Gates's behavior. I don't blame the officer for being peeved at Gates's antics. Truthfully, I think a lesser man might have busted Gates in the chops.

All that said: Based on my experience with the criminal justice system, I still don't see a valid basis for a disorderly conduct charge. I'm not trying to be cute here. I'm not engaging in hyperbole. If someone brought the facts of Gates's case to me, I'd expect the matter to be dismissed at, or prior to, arraignment. And I'd be hard pressed to advise anyone to accept any plea on those facts, not even for a slap on the wrist. Understand: I'm not saying Gates was right. I can't put it strongly enough that he appears to have been a douche bag in all of this. I am talking only about the validity of the now dismissed charge, given my understanding of the legal principles involved. Engaging in conduct that can be described as disorderly doesn't necessarily amount to the criminal offense of disorderly conduct. I honestly don't see it on the facts before me. No disrespect intended.

And just to be very clear, NO DISRESPECT TO FLK9. Cops have a really important and difficult job. I want them to be there for me when I need help and protection. Maybe we ask and expect too much of them, at times.

Keep in mind if you've been the victim of racial profiling time and time again, one may become unglued when challenged in their own home.

But, coming unglued and escalating the race question is indeed counterproductive.

Gates should have invited the officers in for coffee, discussed in a civil tone any awkwardness he experienced, and then shook hands with the officers, thanking them for responding to the complaint, and finally availing himself to speak to the department about race. That's how we teach ... that's how we lead.

Unfortunately, everyone's not as smart and polished as me.

and polished as me."

Oh, would that we were!

(Is it the Delaware experience that provides the advantage? If so, I might have to move back home. Nice touch on the grammatical snafu, yes?)

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