Unanimous.
"Catholic Social Services only an accommodation that will allow it to continue serving the children of Philadelphia in a manner consistent with its religious beliefs; it does not seek to impose those beliefs on anyone else," Chief Justice John Roberts
Replies to: Unanimous.
Victory #1 9-0. Clear message to LGTBQ et al - “Back off religious rights”.
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Somewhere Chris is weeping uncontrollably, but still hoping Juneteenth is
declared a national holiday
You can sit this one out if you wish...or join in with your thoughts.
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News flash: I don't need your permission for anything., so pi** off
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Don't get so upset...just inviting you to join in on this topic.
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You should temper your enthusiasm over this ruling...the issue of "Gay Rights" is by no means
"settled" as evidenced by the attached links. Acceptance of the LGBTQ community is definitely trending upwards...across the globe...here in the USA...and, within the U.S. Catholic Church...in fact, by a nearly 2 to 1 ratio, U.S. Catholics are accepting of those people.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/06/25/global-divide-on-homosexuality-persists/
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-supreme-court-has-carved-out-one-religious-exemption-after-another-the-next-may-be-a-blow-to-lgbtq-rights/
"Project Blitz" will likely suffer the same fate that the similarly named WWII offensive on human rights had.
Link: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/02/how-catholics-around-the-world-see-same-sex-marriage-homosexuality/
Do you categorize all people or just the gay ones? "those people" I am positive you just hurt
someone's feelings.
Thank you for that...we're talking about "People" here, who have a distinguishing characteristic.
...we should never forget that the LGBTQ community is first and foremost a group that is entitled to the same human rights as any other persons.
No one has suggested people with that "distinguishing characteristic" don't have human rights.
So, why the reminder? Are you trying to demonize your opponent by implying something that is not true?...that your opponent doesn't grant all humans basic human rights?
Do you grant all humans the same basic rights? Or, do you draw lines based on "distinguishing characteristics?"
Intestingly, it sounds like you think they are less than fully human, because you seem to think that they are slaves to their proclivities...you have labeled mere proclivities as "distinguishing characteristics" which seems, well, harsh. They are fully human, you know. They do have an intellect, and a will. They are much, much more than their proclivities. I would hardly call a proclivity a "distinguishing characteristic."
I'm curious: Do you think unborn humans are entitled to the same human rights as any other person? Or, do they lose those rights because of the distinguishing characteristic of being too young? You can say start a new thread about that (your favorite diversion on this issue), but if you do, I will assume that you do think it is ok to withhold basic human rights based on distinguishing characteristics. As for me? I don't think that.
Catholics are accepting of "those people." Only the choices some people make are problematic.
Interestingly, Catholic Doctrine is not determined by popular vote. Looking forward to you linking the Catechism some day.
It's not like all those people surveyed over decades are oblivious to the issues...they fully
understand what is being said by Catholic leaders on "both" sides of the LGBTQ debate...their "votes" are real...you need to deal with this.
Your point is unclear. Can you elaborate? Why do I "need to deal with" polls on religious belief?
Church Doctrine is Church Doctrine. Polling over the last few decades is entirely irrelevant to that. I assume you agree with this. So, what point are you trying to make regarding polling? There is no "both sides of the debate" when it comes to Doctrine. There is only those who embrace the entirety of Catholic Doctrine, and those who do not...and the latter do not speak for the former. Meanwhile, Catholic Doctrine abides independently of all of that.
Side point: I look at this not as a rights vs. rights case. The civil/secular right of homosexuals to engage in homosexual behavior was never questioned or challenged by the Church. Rather, this was a power vs. rights case. The issue was whether gay activists could use the power of government to coerce a religion to condone the views which were antithetical to the religion's doctrine. (You can argue with me on this, but even liberal justices agree with me.) Today, rights won out over powers, which is as it should be, of course. The sole purpose of a right is to stop the exercise of power against that right.
A better phrasing (by me) would have been "you should...", but the message is still the same, the
considered opinion of a majority of Catholics is one of acceptance for the LGBTQ community...and that opinion matters, because Church "Doctrine" is not "Dogma"...it is a 'current' teaching, and doctrines/teachings have been changed before...(see following link)
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/history-shows-the-church-has-changed-its-moral-teachings-1.437230
I submit that such a process is underway as we speak with regard to the LGBTQ issue, and the polls bear that out. Pope Francis has shown that even the highest levels of the Catholic Church can be open to a new doctrinal teaching. It won't happen tomorrow, for sure, but don't be surprised if the tide of public opinion doesn't win out eventually. Guaranteed, some members of the Church will be unhappy...hopefully, they will see the 'goodness' in that teaching...
BTW, surprisingly, even the Southern Baptists have heard the call to a more progressive view and elected leadership that reflects that perspective....they are human beings too, so why can't the Catholic Church go in that direction?
Link: https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-roman-catholic-church
Your link-src on Doctrine is "not suitable nor eligible to teach Catholic theology" per JPII. Nice.
You are exposing yourself as an active dissenter, not a mainstream Catholic.
That's fine. That is your right. But why pretend to be something you are not? Why try to wrap yourself in the robes of Catholic authority when you post, when, in actuality, you dissent from that very authority? That seems a bit disingenuous. You believe that the authority granted by Christ to the Church is somehow flawed, so just come out, and admit that you do not embrace the entirety of the faith. Many here do that...why do you choose to hide that fact?
If our Pope can say "Who am I to judge" when it comes to gays, why can't I dissent from current
Church teaching...after all, it's not Dogma, it's the considered opinion of today's leadership...just like with Contraception, which literally hundreds of millions of Catholics also disagree with, and act accordingly. Are any of them excommunicated?...barred from communion?
I certainly haven't tried to mislead anyone as to where I stand on this issue...I'll still attend Mass and take the Eucharist..you have a problem with that?
The Pope won't judge people. Not his role. He does judge doctrine & through doctrine, behavior.
You misrepresent Catholic teaching to make political points. Shame on you.
there's no debate, it is settled
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Exactly. Polls are only as good as the question asked.
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The issue of gay rights trumping religious rights has most certainly been clarified
Your being dishonest with yourself if you think otherwise. 9-0.
And it matters not what your popularity polls say even if they were unbiased (we all know how rarely that is these days). This protects the religious even if they are in the minority of popular opinion. The Constitution won big today - specifically freedom of religion.
I get that you don't like the poll results...but "The Catholic Church" is not unified against the
LGBTQ community...that is factual, and in fact there is a near 2:1 preference by people who call themselves Catholic for not discriminating against them.... So what we actually have here is a "splinter group" of the Catholic Church trying to represent what that religion believes...this sort of activism throws the whole "religious liberty" idea into question...the following is hyperbole, but what stops every Tom, Dick or Harry from declaring themselves leaders of a Church and making rules that violate everyone else's freedoms?...and when challenged, they run to the U.S. Supreme Court for protection...utter chaos ensues.
For every National Catholic Register article against the LGBTQ community, there is another from the National Catholic Reporter in sympathy with them...this is not settled and likely will never be completely within the Catholic Church, but the trend is moving in the direction of inclusion and acceptance...probably to the point where the Vatican will eventually make a pronouncement to that effect...prepare yourself.
I assume you put "The Catholic Church" in quotes so you can blur some lines somewhere?
Otherwise, why put it in quotes? Because you want to pretend that Catholic Doctrine depends on polling of cafeteria Catholics? That Doctrine changes with the ebb and flow of feelings and varying levels of adherence among the faithful? It is almost as if you are speaking for a splinter group of partial Catholics who want to speak for the actual Church (no quotes). Obviously, you know that is incorrect. Judging doctrine by the adherence of the faithful is an external, non-Catholic viewpoint.
The Church is not against any community of people. The Catholic Church clearly condemns any form of discrimination. But, you can't extrapolate from the fact that the Church embraces all people, that it therefore condones all types of behavior.
Interestingly, the National Catholic Register has no effect on Catholic Church Doctrine.
The quotation marks are used to emphasize that there is no consensus within the Church on the issue
of LGBTQ rights...as I say in an earlier post, the current doctrine/teaching is not dogma and can be changed...as others have been in the past...the laity is not constrained to abide by it...heck, the Church's teaching on contraception is 'dismissed' by over 90% of Catholics...probably most of those on this very Forum.
All of those statements are either inaccurate or irrelevent.
The level of adherence of the faithful will always be a spectrum from "standing on the threshold of the church door looking in" to, well, the Magisterium. You should not use the least faithful to define the faith. That is disingenuous of you. You are trying to mislead people what the Church says. You would look at a hospital, and say, "See! Look everyone! See all the sick people here?! This place encourages people to be sick!" That is totally disingenuous.
Note: I'm not saying you can't make moral arguments that contradict Church teaching. Go right ahead. We can discuss.
But, when you make moral arguments that contradict Church teaching, and then you pretend that they don't contradict Church teaching, that is when you move into the territory of lies, and I don't know why you want to go there. Why not stand up for your moral arguments yourself? Why try to trick people regarding what the Church teaches?
Take a closer look at my post)s)...I said that the Church's stand on the LGBTQ community "is"
current teaching...I'm not misleading anyone. What I am saying is that the doctrine is "not" Dogma and can be changed...big, big difference. Again, the Church doctrine on the use of Contraception is that it is "intrinsically evil", yet the vast majority of the Catholic laity listens to this teaching...examines their consciences and makes the decision to employ it anyway...are they excommunicated?...barred from communion?...of course not.
The 'current' doctrine/teaching can indeed be changed...the laity is only bound to consider the Church's teachings and then make their own moral judgement.
My reading of your post seems to acknowledge what I'm saying...so, let's just understand the reality of the situation...reasoned people disagree with the Church's teaching on the LGBTQ issue...let's talk about "Why" that is.
Very nicely said.
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The Catholic Church is not unified against the, but they are of a libleral slant
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Welcome to the all appeasing progressives of today's society.
Things were so much easier when you just had a male and female. Or a catholic. Or baptist. No one can just get along, so we have "splinter" groups that require everyone to applaud them and agree, which never happens. See Frank's post earlier today.
"Things were so much easier when..."...that IMO typifies the non-progressive view...not unlike the
theme song for Archie Bunker's "All in the Family" show..."Those were the days..."