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immigrants and I'd be hard pressed to find even one who was not a hard working and peaceful addition to this nation.

If you haven't already, volunteer to do the same in your locality...could change your perspective.

Personally I am not against immigration... even some illegal immigration, and would support an earned pathway to citizenship, but currently it is out of control.

bipartisan legislation that dramatically improves our currently broken Immigration/Border Security system...ASAP. All it takes is an email, phone call, or visit...encourage all your friends to do the same...I know I will.

What can we say about politicians whose policies favor the cartels and the money grubbing NGOs?

Link: https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/immigration/border-coverage/ngos-american-tax-dollars-migrants/

"Illegal Immigrants" but do nothing when it comes to stopping Texas businesses from employing them...so as to maintain effective "Slave Labor"? That's the real Exploitation going on...and as for 'Cartels', the Biden administration got Senate Republicans to fund nearly 100 High Tech Fentanyl scanners at our border crossings to quickly inspect the thousands of cars/trucks coming into the country daily...let's see if Trump implements that much needed technology on Day 1, given that he killed that provision a year ago...I know I'll be watching for it.

As for NGO's...a Big One involved with the Immigration issue is Catholic Charities...an organization that is heavily reliant on Volunteers and get's A+ marks from organizations like "Charity Watch" that evaluate the integrity of Charities...btw, my wife and I helped lead other volunteers in our Parish to assist Catholic Charities in their effort to get an Afghani family situated in the Bay Area...we helped get them furniture and move it into their apartment...a total Volunteer effort which was led by a Protestant case worker who wasn't "money grabbing", and neither was the Charity. On a closing note, that Afghani family went out of their way to provide a fantastic dinner for all of us, and then invited us to attend their daughter's Muslim wedding...great time had by all, including the Henna markings on our hands. Good People.

No double standard. Illegal immigrants broke law, period.

(see link)...and that's what I'm talking about. They must be treated fairly and justly, as the human beings they are...that's the message from "Dignitas Infinita".

Link: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-constitutional-rights-do-undocumented-immigrants-have

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1) If you say there will be "mass deportations," then do you admit that there was "mass illegal immigration?" Yes or no?

2) Are you willing to give the same government aid to current immigrants as was given to the Irish long ago, and no more? Yes or no?

3) Are you willing to live by all Vatican pronouncements?...or only those that agree with Democrat policies? Again, an easy answer: all of them, or only the ones you like?

1) Of course there is "Mass Undocumented Immigration" and our system to deal with it is broken...that's why the Biden/Harris administration proposed legislation on Day 1...and they achieved a bipartisan Senate Bill that was termed by the lead GOP Senator as the 'Best' in decades...btw, that Bill did not call for a cessation of immigration...just improved policy decisions and much more funding for CBP and ICE officers...Judges, and investigators to speed up decisions on who should stay and who should be deported, etc...haven't we discussed this before?

2) We are talking about our situation in 2024...and the legislation that is needed to deal with it. My use of the Irish Ballad "Fields of Athenry" is to drive home the concern for a complete lack of empathy by a government ...e.g. the British Crown...for the living conditions of simple people just trying to survive...like my ancestors in Ireland...and today's President-Elect, who, by his own words...and condition as a Malignant Narcissist with (.by definition,) NO empathy for others, could very well act the same way toward millions of simple people of Hispanic descent...ripping apart families and callously deporting them when they didn't deserve such treatment.

3) The Vatican has been Emphatic about its concern for the just and fair treatment of Immigrants...hence the paper entitled "Dignitas Infinita", which I trust you agree with...am I right? As I've noted, there is real concern that the incoming Trump administration will totally ignore what the Vatican says...who will you side with...Trump, or the Vatican?

"4)" I can see your allusion to the Abortion issue...and it will likely surprise you that I agree with the Vatican's position...let's start another thread on that...let me know when you're ready (btw, try and get Baron to join in)

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remain here until their status is finalized...by a lawful process. There is nothing "Illegal" about those people...you should know this basic fact by now, Ned. As for those who are never apprehended, we need more funding for CBP and ICE officers, plus High Tech/High Speed Scanners to quickly and remotely inspect the thousands of cars and trucks crossing into our country each day. The Biden administration worked with GOP Senators to get that funding nearly a year ago...we should be using it right now...but DJT needed to stay out of prison, so he killed the deal in order to keep Biden from winning.

You just hope no one else notices.

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Catholic Catechism: "2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life."

express empathy for the millions of undocumented immigrants who have been LEGALLY admitted into this country...pending decisions on their appeals...and given his first term's use of "Zero Tolerance" where children were ripped from their parents arms, never to be re-united, this is a GENUINE CONCERN. As a Practicing Catholic, are you in favor of that policy being repeated?...Yes...or...No?

in point of fact, Pope Francis reiterated that position when he said that the Personhood of a fetus is "debated". Now, having said that, I agree that Abortion is sinful, but just as killing is sinful, there are circumstances in which it can be Prudently Justified. as in a "Just War"...so too, with a totally unwanted, forced or coerced pregnancy that can be ended, if the victim (woman) so chooses...btw, awhile ago I got the impression that you might accept such situations as being justified, but you held back simply because you believed the #'s were too small (when in actuality they are quite large). So, it wasn't a case of unbendable Theology on your part, but rather a disregard for the women involved.

We really should continue this topic in another thread, or two...there's more to say by each of us, and others are sure to add their thoughts. Are you up for it?

Meanwhile, I hope that you agree with Pope Francis' remarks in "Dignitas Infinita", and will let your Representative and Senators know that you want them to ensure that ALL immigrants are treated with respect, fairness and love as fellow human beings...am I right?

Just in case you haven't bookmarked that document, I've attached it for you.


Link: https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_ddf_doc_20240402_dignitas-infinita_en.html

That's why people don't trust you. You lie openly, often and Proudly.

The Catholic Catechism also says this:

"2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law"

I've posted...and others have as well...the link to Mike Lewis' summary of "Pope Francis and the Personhood Debate"...here are the concluding paragraphs that deal with the RCC's position on "Personhood"...note that there will be edits required to avoid a "timeout" cancelling the whole post.
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During the papacy of Saint John Paul II, the Magisterium began to insist that we consider personhood as if it begins at the moment of conception, however. In Evangelium Vitae, John Paul taught this forcefully: “The human being is to be respected and treated as a person from the moment of conception; and therefore from that same moment his rights as a person must be recognized, among which in the first place is the inviolable right of every innocent human being to life” (60). A few years earlier, the CDF produced a document, Donum Vitae (“Instruction on respect for human life”), which made a similar point: “The human being must be respected – as a person – from the very first instant of his existence” (5.I.1).

Note however, that both the encyclical and the instruction call for the child in the womb “to be respected” as a person from the moment of conception, without definitively teaching that the embryo is a person. Donum Vitae mentions the personhood debate later in the section, stating, “This Congregation is aware of the current debates concerning the beginning of human life, concerning the individuality of the human being and concerning the identity of the human person.” Donum Vitae then quotes from the 1974 CDF document and adds the conclusion, “The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable.”

In 2008, this point was again reiterated by the CDF, then led by Cardinal William Levada under Pope Benedict XVI. In the document Dignitas Personae, the Congregation stated, “If Donum vitae, in order to avoid a statement of an explicitly philosophical nature, did not define the embryo as a person, it nonetheless did indicate that there is an intrinsic connection between the ontological dimension and the specific value of every human life” (5).

What does all of this mean? Well, for one thing, it is clear that the Magisterium has acknowledged on multiple occasions that there is a debate about personhood. It is also clear that the Church has not always considered the life of a human person to begin at conception, nor has the Church definitively taught this. That said, the Church has always regarded abortion to be evil from the moment of conception. More recently, the Church has pushed back against the idea that “delayed personhood” is relevant to its position on the sanctity of human life from the moment of conception. It has taught instead that life, from the moment of conception should be treated and respected as a human person. And in this, Pope Francis has always been in line with Catholic Tradition.
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While the RCC and Pope Francis are definitely trying to emphasize the "respect" for human life at all stages...and appropriately so...it is clear that there is hesitation in definitively stating that Personhood begins at conception...no one has explained why, but the gap is unmistakable. To me it brings to mind that a fair number of pregnancies end before anyone, including the pregnant woman could possibly know it occurred...and others that result in miscarriages very early where it is not obvious to the woman what sex it even is, so what is the RCC to do? In point of fact, nothing is ever done...there are no "Rites" established for such occurrences...no records kept...and virtually no efforts extended to counsel the women involved and attempt to relieve their sadness. As a side note, I recall a friend of ours recounting the anguish she endured trying to be a good Catholic and scooping out the remains of her miscarriage from her toilet. Perhaps stories like that were relayed to Pope Francis and others during their debates on fetal Personhood.

Now, onto the abortion issue...in our imperfect world there are unfortunately too many forced and coerced pregnancies endured by innocent women who never wanted them, and certainly not the potential lifelong physical and/or mental harm they could bring. Because of this reality, I find it impossible to believe that the one true Person in such circumstances would have no recourse to diminish the effects of such an unwanted assault...i.e. be able to choose an abortion. Some women may be able to deal with carrying the pregnancy to term, but not all can...furthermore, we live in a pluralistic society with other faith members who have different beliefs than Catholics...e.g. many Jews believe that Personhood begins at Birth...so the option of abortion must be made available at least up to the term of gestation where 'Viability' is generally accepted . Also, only the woman involved can possibly determine what is endurable and what is not...no outsiders, and certainly not strangers in a court room, can possibly make a fair and objective judgement about such a thing...i.e. it's her decision, and hers only.

I'd also like to comment on the Catechism's paragraph on "Just Wars" (Par 2309) which deals with the intrinsic Evil of Killing...yet sanctions it if certain conditions exist and sufficient Prudential Judgement is exercised in making that discernment. "Why" is such killing allowed?...no one says, but to me the issue involves more than simple existence...People need to be able to live in freedom and if there is sufficient threat to living such a life then such extreme, albeit "Intrinsically Evil" measures can be taken...the same with forced or coerced pregnancies...if the situation involves an innocent woman who never wanted such a pregnancy, then she should be able to exercise her own "Prudential Judgement", hopefully with the counsel of a Pastor, Doctor, Family Member, and make her own decision...unencumbered by any government intrusion.


Link: https://wherepeteris.com/pope-francis-and-the-personhood-debate/

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...here's an excerpt from the attached article...but be sure to read all of it.
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There is no national database that compares crimes committed by immigration status. In fact, only one state – Texas – does so. That means there’s no national database that breaks down crimes committed by native-born citizens or immigrants, or those in the country illegally, making it difficult to confirm or dispute the president’s numbers.

What available studies do show, however, is that overall, crime rates are lower among immigrant groups than they are among native-born Americans.

Walter Ewing, an editor and writer for the American Immigration Council, a group that advocates for immigrants, puts it this way: “You can find any demographic group that you like and it’s going to include murderers. You can look at redheads and blondes and it’s going to include murders. But that’s not the point, the point is what the crime rates are,” he said.

Comparing overall crime rates for different groups is the best way to determine if a particular group poses a significantly greater threat than others.

“And if the likelihood is low, particularly compared to natives, then it’s disingenuous to claim they’re going to be a threat,” Ewing added.

Alex Nowrasteh, a senior immigration policy analyst with the libertarian Cato Institute, points to Texas as an example, since it’s the state with the best data on crimes committed and counted by immigration status and was the subject of a recent report he wrote showing that criminal conviction and arrest rates for immigrants were "well below" those of native-born Americans.

Undocumented immigrants make up just over 6 percent of the state's population, legal immigrants made up over 10 percent, and native-born Americans make up over 80 percent, according to the most recent American Community Survey data and the Center for Migration Studies.

Meanwhile, undocumented immigrants were convicted of 5.9 percent of all the homicides in Texas, legal immigrants were convicted of 3.8 percent of homicides, and native-born Americans were convicted of about 90 percent of all the homicides in Texas, according an analysis of 2015 Texas state data by Nowrasteh.
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If you can find more recent data that contradicts these findings, then be sure to post it...otherwise, face facts that we are better off welcoming much needed immigrants who want to live here peacefully and contribute to our economic growth.


Link: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fact-check-trumps-claims-illegal-immigrant-crime-rates/story?id=60311860

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...even though what Trump did to her was/is considered Rape by the Federal Government and multiple states, including Florida...it wasn't in NY law when the offense took place (but as of early this year, it is)...i.e. the very definition of a "Difference Without Distinction"...and Judge Merchan made that clear when he refused Trump's motion to overturn the defamation ruling. (see link)

Now, back to the article in this thread...violent crime is HIGHER among native born Americans than it is among undocumented immigrants.

Why do you support such a despicable and destructive person...for President, no less?


Link: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/07/donald-trump-rape-language-e-jean-carroll

especially, when it comes to dicta.

against her will...which, as I understand it, fulfills the definition of Rape in the Federal and many State's (like FLA, and now NY) jurisdictions...correct me if I'm wrong.

The judge can say anything that he wants and invite an issue for appeal and he in fact made several rulings and comments inviting appeal. But unless there was a jury instruction there can be no finding of rape. I invite your attention to the settlement announced this past Sunday between ABC Corp and George Stephanopoulus on the one hand and President Elect Trump on the other hand in an amount of $16M plus $1M for attorneys fees to be paid to Trump on this issue. Of course, you can believe anything that floats your boat but to my knowledge there were no federal criminal jury instructions given to the jury nor any criminal jury instructions fron any other state jurisdictions provided to the jury.

Merry Christmas to you and yours

btw, my apology for referencing the wrong Judge...it was Kaplan, not Merchan...so much going on with Merchan recently.

But back to the Rape allegation...here's what Judge Lewis Kaplan had to say...
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Dismissing the counterclaim, Judge Kaplan provided an unsparing analysis of the legal issues that informed the New York verdict. He wrote: “The only issue on which the jury did not find in Ms Carroll’s favour was whether she proved that Mr Trump ‘raped’ her within the narrow, technical meaning of that term in the New York penal law.

“The jury … was instructed that it could find that Mr Trump ‘raped’ Ms Carroll only if it found that he forcibly penetrated Ms Carroll’s vagina with his penis.

“It could not find that he ‘raped’ her if it determined that Mr Trump forcibly penetrated Ms Carroll’s private sexual parts with his fingers – which commonly is considered ‘rape’ in other contexts – because the New York penal law definition of rape is limited to penile penetration.”

Kaplan had already outlined why it was not defamation for Carroll to say Trump raped her.

“As the court explained in its recent decision denying Mr Trump’s motion for a new trial on damages and other relief [in the New York case] … based on all of the evidence at trial and the jury’s verdict as a whole, the jury’s finding that Mr Trump ‘sexually abused’ Ms Carroll implicitly determined that he forcibly penetrated her digitally – in other words, that Mr Trump in fact did ‘rape’ Ms Carroll as that term commonly is used and understood in contexts outside of the New York penal law.”
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I rest my case ;-)

Merry Christmas to you and yours, JH...All the Best, Always.


Link: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/07/donald-trump-rape-language-e-jean-carroll

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I don't support either, but no one deserved to lose like the Democrats.

alliances in Europe and Asia against our worst enemies...Russia and China. Trump only benefited the wealthiest Americans and Corporations that turned the largess into Stock Buybacks...not Investments for a better future...plus he did all he could to unravel our alliances...and sided with Putin against our own Military and Intelligence agencies.

Not sure what measures you're using, but from the looks of things you should ditch them.

Now, back to "Mass Deportations"...keep an eye on DJT's businesses and all the undocumented immigrants working in them...see if he sets a "Good Example" by deporting any of them first before going after the millions of others who are also working hard to scrape out a living here while paying taxes that strengthen Medicare and Social Security...in spite of not being able to take advantage of those benefits.

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a landslide by any means and there are many within his own party who are resisting him already...given his choices for cabinet members and his economic policies, it's an open question as to how long "Trumpism" lasts. The first major test will come in 2026...possibly earlier should he decide to go "All In" on Project 2025.

Joe Rogan?
White Supremacists?
Climate Change?
Russia?

Did you know Trump won the popular vote and all swing states?
A simple yes or no will suffice.

You are not one. You do not respect the Church. Do not expect anyone to take you seriously.

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Per Texas data violent crime by undocumented immigrants is WAY LESS than from native born citizens.

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the murder rate for native born citizens is higher than that for undocumented immigrants and legal immigrants...so, in essence, those immigrants are improving the situation in Texas.

Go back and read the link I provided to you...that's reality and not uninformed opinion...like yours.

btw, here's more on the Immigration/Violent Crime issue...see the attached link from "FactCheck"...


Link: https://www.factcheck.org/2024/09/trump-vance-wrong-about-illegal-immigrant-murderers/

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Americans...time to face facts, Cheeks.

But if you want to fantasize...consider deporting our Convicted Felon and Violent Sexual Assaulter who is President-Elect Trump to a country that accepts such vermin...like, say...Russia ;-)

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undocumented immigrants...you're barking up the wrong tree.

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referring to Bill Clinton the rapist?

referring to Bill Clinton the rapist

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