UHND.com - Notre Dame Football, Basketball, & Recruiting

they’ve lost 4 oblasts, 1m men, and billions of dollars, and could’ve avoided it all via the deal brokered in Turkey.

I think it is the greatest foreign policy failure of our lifetime that they did not strike a peace deal and instead chose the war.

(no message)

Putin was right and that the posters with common sense have “Russia Phobia.” What a sad sack of shit.

(no message)

No need in rehashing a deal that was only in Putin’s favor. Stupidity at its core.

(no message)

You guys keep leaving that part out. Would you fight to the death to protect your home and nation?

(no message)

(no message)

(no message)

(no message)

(no message)

(no message)

Of course war is a waste. Of course it could have been avoided. You can say that about most wars. You could say that about the Revolutionary War.

But, given that Russia attacked (again), and this time with the goal of total victory (because apparently Putin had no fear of Western reprisals), had Ukraine not fought back, it would have lost all of its territory, and the people who chose to fight would be under Russian rule now, and Putin would be looking at Moldova or another place to rebuild the USSR. The fact that Ukraine has stalled Russia is a victory of sorts. It was not for nothing...unless you value your life over freedom, in which case evil will always win.

You give our role too much credit. The US was willing to smuggle Zelensky out over night like the Russians did for Assad. We were willing to hand over Ukraine to Russia (after promising to defend Ukraine to get them to hand their nukes over to Russia.) They fight in spite of us, not for us.

Of course you don't understand the point. Because you don't understand this war, or accurately say, you don't want to understand this war, or even more accurately say, you follow MSM to hide and change the origin, the cause and the nature of this war.

Because of "your failing to understand", I guess you also don't understand why people including Trump who against this war called those behind this proxy war warmongers.

What always bugs me is the people who will defend us poking our nose into the internal affairs of other countries, forcing regime changes, taking things away from them, telling other countries that they have to accept enemy countries at their borders, but would never, ever tolerate some other country forcing a regime change in our country, stoking revolts, taking things away from us, or telling us that we just have to accept some enemy alliance bunching up on our border. And all they have to say is, "Putin lover!" That's how bereft of any intelligent argument they are.

And no matter that they have it all wrong every single time, they have the chutzpah to lecture people and prognosticate with authority about the next glorious one.

If nothing, nothing else at all, comes out of the incoming administration, it would all be worth it if a new normal of noninterventionism takes hold. For this country's first half-century, interventionism was not the policy. It took a long time of intervention for it to become normalized. It will take a long time reverse that, but this could be a start.

I welcome your critique of what I posted.

I just didn't see how Ukraine could have stopped this war, and it didn't seem like the US was trying to start the war.

I guess your point all hinges on NATO expansion forcing Putin's hand?

But your orginal post could be summed up this way:
1) War is stupid and a waste. (Too which I said, "Of course.")
2) No virtue in entering a fight you cannot possibly win (To which I responded that Ukraine is holding their ground, which is a win given that everyone thought Kiev would fall within 48 hours.)
3) The Biden administration sacrificed Ukranians for nothing by subsidizing the war. (I don't get that at all. We supported them after they decided to fight. We were ready to betray them as you seem to be advocating for.)
4) Something about cheering on the war (which I have not done)

I think the NATO expansion is the better argument as a cause...although I guess I tend to think that it merely directed Putin toward Ukraine before he was ready. But, that is your best point.

It is a shame that we promised Ukraine to protect them from Russia, and then decided not to. It would have been better if we told Ukraine they would have to defend themselves, and just let Ukraine keep their nukes. None of this would have happened. (I know Chris94 says they could not have been used, but that argument rings hollow. Ukraine would have figured out how to use them.) But, back then, non-proliferation was a goal of the United States. Now that we are letting North Korea and Iran have nukes (and providing nuclear technology to N.K. and funding to Iran), it is a shame that we talked Ukraine out of their nukes.

an alibi for not having one.

All our policy talk on Russia in public domain in last 10+ years is attacking Putin and demonizing him, nothing else. I would say this is neocon's strategy. This can hide their true policy which they know can not be accepted by american public.

Your first point is about our arrogance. We have double standards. I think, in the case of Russia, our government have treated Russia as defeated nation, downplaying Rusia/USSR side contribution to end the cold war. This triumphalist, winner take all approach has been spearheaded by the expansion of nato.

who has propped up other mass murderers like Assad, that Chechen guy, and Jong Un. Then again murder is a subject near and dear to your heart.

They think the war wouldn’t have happened without US aid. Cole thought the war wouldn’t be over in 2 weeks. Disgraceful

(no message)

Or you’re just an ill informed twat. Probably a little of both.

Go back and read Eli’s posts. Go way back and you’ll see how he defends everything Putin does. He even called Putin’s genocidal escapade a “special military operation.” Go even further back and you’ll see that Eli defended China’s action at Tiananmen Square. That’s your guy.

For fucks sake, quit being an idiot. This shit is Putin’s doing. NATO did not provoke this war. You idiots think that the fighting wouldn’t have happened without western aid. Shit, Cole said the war would be over in 2-3 weeks when it started.

Go ahead and bury your head in the sand. You are a pussy, after all. Have a Merry Christmas if that’s possible.

(no message)

You got it all wrong...again.

(no message)

(no message)

Everything Biden gave was well after the fact, and too late.

The only way for Ukraine to have avoided losing territory was if Biden would have helped Ukraine with arms and support when Putin sat for weeks with his troops amassed and threatening the border.
Putin guaged Biden's reaction, and Biden gave him the green light telling him via a press conference that "a limited incursion" would be tolerated.
The rest was for political show after the fact. Now that political show is bankrupting us, but more importantly killing many Ukranians without any real hope of winning.

in March of 2021...which they used with great success during the early days of Putin's War...(see linked Government announcement, dated March, 2022)...here's an excerpt from that link...btw, w/o the anti-armor U.S. Javelin missiles, etc. along with military intelligence, Putin would have been able to seize Kiev and all of Ukraine quickly.
-------------------
Biden noted that the United States actually started helping Ukraine long before Russia invaded the country. As Putin began to amass troops on the border with Ukraine, "we took the threat of Putin invading very seriously, and we acted on it," he said.

The United States sent $650 million in security assistance beginning in March 2021. This included anti-air and anti-armor weapons that the Ukrainian military has used to great effect, he said. "So, when the invasion began, they already had in their hands the kinds of weapons needed to counter Russian advances," he said.

Once Putin started the war, the United States sent an additional $350 million.

Last weekend, Biden authorized another $200 million to keep a steady flow of weapons and ammunition moving to Ukraine.

The order Biden signed today brings the total of new U.S. security assistance to Ukraine to $1 billion just this week. The latest package is made up of direct transfers of equipment from DOD to the Ukrainian military.

This new package includes 800 anti-aircraft systems and 9,000 anti-armor systems. In addition, the United States is working with allies to identify and transfer longer range anti-aircraft systems to Ukraine, the president said.
------------------

Correcting ALL of Baron's misstatements, falsehoods and fantasies would be a full time job for at least two people...fortunately, most of those posts are patently ridiculous and need no response.


Link: https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2968823/biden-signs-order-transferring-arms-to-ukrainian-defenders/

Putin conducted aggressive war against the Ukes to eliminate it or make it a vassal state. You are correct that if Zelensky wanted to leave we would have arranged it and that would have been that. However he and his nation wanted to fight. We have simply assisted them with military arms. Blame the victim and the U.S. That’s what he’s turned into. If they hadn’t fought and we hadn’t supplied them, Putin would have absorbed them by now and there would be nothing to discuss.

NONSENSE!

Putin has lost unless he gets it all... and wipes out the Ukrainians and Ukranian culture... and eventually the Baltics... and finally the Warsaw Pact nations.

As it is, his country has an imploding third world economy and NATO has more border with him than ever.

If Trump appeases him his legacy is to be this century's Neville Chamberlain.

(no message)

But what if the Ukranians and Taiwanese want to keep resisting… should we send aid to Putin and Xi to expedite peace?

(no message)