The countries with the most STEM graduates. This explains rising of China
If U.S. can't make stem great again, there's no way the US can compete with a country that produces 4 millions scientists and engineers every year. Even Russia can be competitive with US from these numbers if US don't change the trend. We need to cancel liberal arts and social sciences programs, simplify the laws and then close 50% law schools. We should tell most kids, if you want to go college, go for STEM.
Link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/02/the-countries-with-the-most-stem-graduates-infographic/
Replies to: The countries with the most STEM graduates. This explains rising of China
Quantity does not equal quality.
I'll speak mostly to the engineering side of STEM....
We don't produce enough engineers in North America, that part is true. But the ones we do produce are excellent, the best in the world.
I work with local, national and large international engineering firms and all levels of government. They are all trying to hire. American and Canadian engineers are in huge demand because they get a great education, graduate, hit the ground running and there is a proven track record of success. Surviving a North American engineering university program is almost proof enough of the grads' abilities and work ethic. Can't say the same about foreign engineering grads. It's hit or miss with more misses than hits. Anecdotally, one of my boys is currently in an engineering program and while in 2nd year he already had multiple full time job offers for after graduation. The market is incredibly tough for employers but the job market for NA engineering grads is phenomenal. Honestly, you could be an average NA engineering grad and you will probably have a really good job for the rest of your working life. That's the sort of demand you're graduating into these days.
As to why more people don't go into STEM programs in North America, reason #1 is because it's hard. It takes effort and commitment. A lot of kids aren't looking for that. That's the truth. They see idiot influencers, and social media celebrities with little intelligence making millions doing nothing but posting about their favourite makeup products or streaming themselves playing video games. So why put yourself through 4 years of hell, and let's face it, engineering school can feel like that at times especially that first year, when there is a perceived easier path.
We aren't going to social engineer our way to a solution by forcing kids into STEM like you suggest. That's just dumb. But we do need to recognize the challenges of getting high school kids excited about STEM and then once they are, keeping them in through the university undergrad program and into their careers. There are ways to incentivize that need to be explored and promoted. But that's a much longer post.
From one engineer to another...pretty good summary.
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Yes, quantity does not equal quality. But it applies to anything.Can we take it as a separate issue?
About your another argument, STEM is hard. This is exactly where parents are needed to push kids because many of them are not mature enough to understand.
Every serious subject or study, history, economics, math, physics....actually is hard if you want to achieve something with them. There is no easy one and no shortcut to learn. It is just that in college they make some majors easy and some hard. But God is fair. He reward hard working, not lazy working. If you work hard you will achieve more.
Take a look at introductory level courses as example:
History 101 or economics 101 (non-math based) and calculus 101 or physics 101. The first 2 may be easier, take you less hours than last 2 to study. But you really can't achieve anything after you learn the first 2. On the other hand, after you learn calculus 101, you can solve the problem that needs you to find the optimal dimensions of a rectangular box with a fixed surface area in order to maximize its volume (a typical homework of cal 101). Furthermore, together with learning physics 101, you can optimize the shape of a bridge or a building structure so that it can withstand stress by using your calculus 101 and physics 101 when you interim in an engineering firm.
You see? Hard-working will get payoff, make you easier achieve something in your career. Many kids don't understand this hard work gets payoff thing. When they become mature and finally understand this, it becomes too late. STEM skills, such as abstract thinking, math calculating, lab work... just like music and chess, have a small window to learn and are best to learn for young people before age of 25.
Spoken like a true communist piece of shit. Question for you..:
Are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party? I know the answer…but do you have the balls to be truthful?
Recent STEM Graduates, per capita in the countries listed...
China...........0.0033
India............0.0019
U.S..............0.0017
Russia.........0.0038
Now, here are the Defense Expenditures per country...in dollars...(2023)
China...........296B
India..............84B
U.S..............916B
Russia.........130B
I suspect we have enough STEM grads to defend the USA.
In my day, we called ourselves “science majors”. We were the apex predators of academia and
chicks really dug us.
PS - China has a much larger “n” to start with here.
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It needs to start in high school, but AI may have something to say about all of this.
AI and space are the next frontiers if we don't bomb ourselves into the stone age. It won't be long before AI will completely overtake humans in science and coding. The question I keep asking myself is what careers should I nudge my teenagers towards? I don't have an answer.
Nudge students towards Comput Science/Software Engineering or anything related to Power Generation
Someone needs to design the AI.
Also AI consumes an incredible amount of energy, so nuclear engineering or even petroleum engineering is probably important for the next 50 years.
Yes, but we have 800% more poli sci graduates.
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with lots of debt
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Says the guy who made a living teaching Civics and English.
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The issue is not whether people can study that. The issue is what the US subsidizes.
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And MAS's major would have been education (teaching) which is a legitimate and needed job skill.
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Not the point he was making. He is likely amongst the 800% additional lib art majors.
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I agree with making STEM a larger proportion of pre-college curricula all across the U.S., but not
forcing kids to pursue STEM futures that don't resonate with their innate interests or passions. Also, in order to achieve the ultimate in 'Human Experience', we NEED graduates in the Arts and Human Sciences. You sound very, very autocratic, Eli...which helps explain the suppression of so many millions of Chinese and Russian citizens.
A person doesn't need to go $200K in debt to become an artist.
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Let me tell you that many, many doctors go deeply into debt in pursuit of their dream profession...
As for artists...you'll find many of them enjoying their lives up and down the CA coast...some doing very well financially, while most are just happy to pursue their passions...and very, very few...if any...have gone into overwhelming debt during their training...
You understand the difference in economics, surely, right?
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Of course. Thus is where he strawmans his way out of the loss.
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Nature is amazing, technology is fascinating. There is no reason why most kids don't like STEM.
The only explanation is their interest was improperly misled by our education, policy and culutre. As parents we have to stand up to correct it. Liberal arts education is only for a very few fine human beings, so-called the noble class. 99.9% people can't become that kind of people. That's the reality.
In my neck of the woods, teens have died standing on railroad tracks...thanks to over-
controlling parents...if you doubt me, read the attached article.
We need to definitely provide insight and opportunities to learn about STEM careers in pre-college curricula...but NEVER force or coerce kids into taking the wrong path...for THEM.
Link: https://www.madinamerica.com/2024/02/reflections-on-the-silicon-valley-teen-suicides-by-train-fifteen-years-later/
If we spend more money subsidizing art degrees less teens will die on railroad tracks?
This is your actual argument?
You need some counseling.
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Typical Chicom. Always in support of indoctrination
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Think he’s saying it should be encouraged not forced.
I don’t have a problem with schollies targeted to STEM majors. We need more. I also have no issues with H1B visas to bring more here in the meantime. Just common sense.
Perfect reply for Tyrone though, who mentioned forcing.
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Sorry, meant for Neddie below.
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You want US tax payers to subsidize people's hobbies, not degrees useful to the country?
I mean sure, why not? It's not like we would have to go into further debt to do that when a Democrat forgives those loans within majors which are known to vote heavily Democrat.
Are business and accounting degrees vital to the nation? We seem to have tons of them already.
Incentivize them into STEM as well.
Not everyone wants to be an engineer, or doctor...and forcing kids into such professions often
produces poor engineers and doctors...that's not good for the country. This is a major reason why it makes sense to keep our "Golden Door" open...if we need more engineers and doctors, there are many elsewhere in the world who would love to pursue such careers in a country that values true freedom for them to live the lives they've always wanted. Heck, even Russia and China value the Arts of Music and Dance, and provide "taxpayer" funding ;-)
While I have your attention, please answer my very clear question regarding the rights of innocent women who have been forced or coerced into pregnancies they never wanted...should they be able to choose the option of abortion... without interference from government intrusion...or must they endure the potential physical, mental and emotional harm for the rest of their lives?...Another question...in your mind, is this part of God's plan?
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No one should be forced to do anything, so your point is irrelevant.
But, if they want US taxpayer dollar help in form of loans, they should have majors which help industry/defense.
If not, they should pay for it themselves.
You're doing a great job of talking out of both sides of your mouth ;-)...You agree that no one
should be forced to do anything, yet at the same time you call for actively denying people support for their naturally desired path in life...thus leaving them with no choice...i.e. forcing them away from what they truly want. Given that "The Arts" are celebrated in virtually every country on the planet, your position is incredibly stupid.
Financial aid is not a right. Denying it forces nobody.
You are doing a good job of lying about what I am saying.
So you admit that your vision uses public funding for your preferred careers, but denies it for
those of others, like the Arts and Humanities...which have genuine value to our Human Society...am I hearing you correctly?
No different than limiting what items food stamps can buy.
Federal funding for STEM degrees can be justified. The same cannot be said for Gender Studies or C.R.T. nonsense.
Not my preferred careers. Careers which have value to industry & defense of the US..
All others should receive no funding.
You want to fund useless majors, too, even at the cost of driving the nation into existentially threatening debt, while driving the cost of education up at 3 times the inflation rate.
However, I'm willing to compromise: let's fund none of them. We don't have the money. Let people do what they are willing to pay for themselves. Then, Dems can't abuse the system by forgiving debt on useless majors, thereby encouraging people to go into useless majors.
See the attached Princeton Review article on the Top 10 College Majors...good luck convincing all
those NON-STEM students to transfer into such fields. And as Frank noted, the country needs accountants, financiers, data analysts, etc. to keep things rolling...and they should be free to work wherever they choose...or, are you going to tell them where to work?
Note that countries who place a high value on education, like Ireland, provide tuition-free college for those who pass their "Leaving Exam"...regardless of their major...that includes all the EU/EEA countries, and Switzerland.
If you want to emphasize STEM, then contact your Representative/Senators to pass a bill authorizing more funding for those careers, but not taking it out of the pockets of those who have vastly different life goals.
Link: https://www.princetonreview.com/college-advice/top-ten-college-majors
He’s certifiably nuts.
Everything looks great from his ivory tower.