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Now we take a look at Shoeless Joe in context of the person, place, and times of that era. You cannot look at his situuation as if it's 2025, expecially now that MLB and these betting sites are bedfellows. If you want to put the steroid guys and the gamblers in the HOF then create a "naughty" wing juust for these characters. I'm shocked that Ty Cobb hasn't been tossed by the committee upon further review.

And he also always claimed as such.

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"Bash Brothers", Mark McGuire and Jose Canseco, to a World Series win over their cross bay rivals...up until that time BB was an outstanding hitter (and fielder), but couldn't match the slugging of MM/JC, so he decided to "Up" his game, like they did. Had it not been for MLB's 'Blind Eye' toward PEDs earlier, this scenario would likely not have happened...at least in the eyes of this Giants fan.

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hung on the right field wall each time an opposing pitcher purposely walked Barry...it was amazing how whenever he swung the bat, he made great contact...incredible eye/hand coordination, regardless of the ball movement or speed, plus an innate sense of the strike zone...none of it dependent on PEDs.

The most obvious of the juicers from the physical changes. Great baseball player and athlete. Horrible person.

Yes, they gladly accepted the exposure that '98 gave them. But in fairness to the league, they tried more than once to get P.E.D. testing into the policies, and each time, the union pushed back. Hard. The league ultimately was willing to keep tabling that so that it could gain the other concessions it wanted in the collective bargaining agreements. It was only after Congress got involved that the union grudgingly allowed testing to begin and to expand.

The union and Donald Fehr said ‘hell no!’ and Bud Selig simply said ‘ok, fine’. He could have - and should have - fought harder, but that would have required leadership and courage, two things he lacked. So Selig folded, though he knew exactly what was going on. The only defense of Selig is that he was just doing the bidding for the owners, but again, a leader would have stepped up to fight.

And baseball journalists similarly stuck their heads in the sand.

I wish they would have. Sad that it took Congress berating Don Fehr to get the ball rolling.

DoFro is right. He fucked around and found out.

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honored as a Hall of Famer. Greatness is also a character point as much as athletic talent and achievement.

There was always some scuttlebutt that maybe if he'd shown contrition, admitted things earlier, been a Vick-like "ambassador" to the game about his transgressions that he could have been considered while alive. I'm not sure that was the case. As bad as P.E.D.'s stained the game, this rule was always 100% cut and dry. And he knowingly and repeatedly violated it.

I also don't fully accept the argument that "he only bet on his own team to win." Forgetting that betting on baseball in general is a violation, the mere fact that he had money wagered on games that he was directly influencing is really, really bad. Did it influence him to risk short-term decisions that would have a negative impact on subsequent games or the outcome of the season? (i.e., leave pitchers in longer, risk bigger injuries by pushing guys who needed recovery into the lineup, forego needed development opportunities for younger guys, etc.). Alternatively, did he waste other games that he didn't have money on in order to maximize the next game that he did have a wager on? Betting on his own team to win really isn't a good argument to me.

If you watched the latest documentary filmed in 2022, he still didn't "get it," and still didn't own any it. You don't see remorse. He was still in denial and still evasive in talking about it.

The punishment was Lifetime Ban. He's gone, and the voters can now make decisions based on all of the relevant information available, just as they do with Bonds, Clemens, etc. If eventually inducted, his display should list his accomplishments, transgressions, and the suspension.

His life is over. No reason he cannot be voted in. Leave it up to his peers.

Rule 21(d)(2) provides:

(d) GAMBLING.

(2) Any player, umpire, or Club or League official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon
any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform, shall be declared
permanently ineligible.


Link: https://content.mlb.com/documents/8/2/2/296982822/Major_League_Rule_21.pdf

Must be I was thinking the same as Jakers.

the Game. No HOF adulation for him. Supporters can build their own shrine. That being said, Rose was one of the greatest MLB players of all time...what a shame he brought upon himself.

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But look -- the Commissioner has the power at any time to remove anybody from the permanently ineligible list. And MLB was prepared to do that with Rose -- provided. . . . .

He wouldn't do the "provided" part. That said, I would take him off the permanently-ineligible list now that he's dead, and let the Hall of Fame decide what it wants to do by itself.

I had a few minutes, so I dug up the press conference. That's the quote, and it's what was always generally stated was the punishment given to Rose.

Agreed on your thoughts.

Now it is up to his peers to decide. 4200 hits cannot be denied.

The Johnny Bench interview with Dan Patrick is a fair and honest assessment.

Link: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=johnny+bench+on+pete+roseon+Dan+patrick+youtube&mid=355EBFF256D33303807A355EBFF256D33303807A&mcid=BF5C4ECA50724E74B8059D7F166110F6&FORM=VIRE

and they received zero punishment. They actually impacted a championship, something Rose didn’t. The PED guys have also gotten no formal punishment for their cheating which was not inconsequential to who won during those years. They are at least informally banned.

In thinking about it more, I believe baseball got it right. He was banned during his life as should the PED dudes. They should let Rose and the rest in on their baseball merits after they pass, but their plaques should also reflect their disgrace.

I’m in favor of adding a wing onto Cooperstown for the various cheats and law breakers. A hall of shame, maybe.

I think Bonds should get in (to the real HOF). Steroids or no steroids, he had the most dominant season at the plate ever. And would have blown past 500 HRs without the juice.

I agree with you that Bonds was already a Hall candidate before the juice. He was at 400-400 and his W.A.R. was already over 150% of the average Hall-of-Fame left fielder. Had he played 5 more natural seasons, he'd have easily ended up at 500-500, and we'd be discussing his name with Mays, Aaron, Mantle.

The same is true for Clemens. Like Bonds, he started the juice at 34, and largely doubled his credentials in the 2nd half of his career because of it. He'd already achieved enough statistically to be inducted before that, and with 5 more 10-10/170K seasons, he'd have finished around 250 wins, close to 4,000 K's and been an easy first-ballot guy.

I just don't know about asking voters to judge their careers based on when we believe they started cheating and make extrapolations from there, while dismissing the guys who were only statistical candidates because of the juice (McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa). To me, either we simply judge them against their era (which was known to have the P.E.D. cloud over it), or we exclude the known cheaters.

But I bet Sosa and McGwire would be in without the juice. Certainly Clemens and Bonds.

A PED wing in the Hall would solve the issue.

McGwire was averaging just under 40 homers per year in the 3 seasons before he started using. Clean, he likely would have exceeded 400 homers and maybe reached 500. It's difficult to know, because he had quite a few injuries (although again, we don't know how much of that was caused by the drugs). Without hitting 500, though, he really wasn't that great of an overall player. He was a sub-replacement-level defensive player, and his impact was pretty much either a home run, walk, or strikeout for most of his career. It's possible, thought.

I don't know that the same can be said about Sosa. We don't know exactly when he started using, but in his first 5 full seasons, he averaged about 18 homers a year. The next 3, it jumped to 37. From '98 forward, it jumped to over 50. He was a below-average defender. Not sure I can see him as a Hall candidate if he'd stayed clean.

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It will not amend his character. It will honor his statistics and not his moral attributes.

You are admiring numbers and not the person.

Fine with me. To each his own.

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