National Review
by ANDREW C. MCCARTHY February 18, 2017 4:00 AM
There appears to have been no basis for a criminal or intelligence probe.
National Security Adviser Michael Flynn was dismissed amid a torrent of mainstream-media reporting and disgraceful government leaks (but I repeat myself). Among the most intriguing was a New York Times report the morning after Flynn’s resignation, explaining that the former three-star Army general and head of the Defense Intelligence Agency was “grilled” by FBI agents “about a phone call he had had with Russia’s ambassador.”
No fewer than seven veteran Times reporters contributed to the story, the Gray Lady having dedicated more resources to undermining the Trump administration than the Republican Congress has to advancing Trump’s agenda. Remarkably, none of the able journalists appears to have asked a screamingly obvious question — a question that would have been driving press coverage had an Obama administration operative been in the Bureau’s hot seat. On what basis was the FBI investigating General Flynn?
To predicate an investigation under FBI guidelines, there must be good-faith suspicion that (a) a federal crime has been or is being committed, (b) there is a threat to American national security, or (c) there is an opportunity to collect foreign intelligence relevant to a priority established by the executive branch.
These categories frequently overlap — e.g., a terrorist will typically commit several crimes in a plot that threatens national security, and when captured he will be a source of foreign intelligence. Categories (a) and (b) are self-explanatory.
It is category (c), intelligence collection, that is most pertinent to our consideration of Flynn. At first blush, this category seems limitless: unmooring government investigators from the constraints that normally confine their intrusions on our liberty (e.g., snooping, search warrants, interrogations) to situations in which there is real reason to suspect unlawful or dangerous activity. Intelligence collection, after all, is just the gathering of information that can be refined into a reliable basis for decisions by policymakers. As we shall see, it is not limitless. But we should understand why it needs to be broad.
Most people think of the FBI as a federal police department that does gumshoe detective work, albeit at a high level and with peerless forensic capabilities. That, indeed, is how I thought of the FBI for my first eight years as a federal prosecutor, before I began investigating terrorism cases and became acquainted with the FBI’s night job. Turns out the FBI’s house has a whole other wing, separate and apart from its criminal-investigation division. Back in pre-9/11 days, this side of the house was called the foreign counter-intelligence division.
Now, it is the national-security branch. Whatever the name, it is our domestic security service, protecting the nation against hostile foreign activity — espionage, other hostile intelligence ops, terrorism, acquisition of technology and components of weapons of mass destruction, and so on. Most of the national-security branch’s work is done in secret, never intended to see the light of day in courtroom prosecutions. In some countries, including Britain, domestic security is handled by an agency (MI5) independent of domestic law enforcement (MI6). In our country, it is handled by a single agency, the FBI, based on the assumption (a sound one in my opinion) that the two missions are interrelated and that one can leverage the other more easily under one roof.
The FBI also has the foreign-intelligence gig because the Bureau is fully constrained by the Constitution and other federal law. Our other intelligence agencies — the best example is the CIA — are prohibited from “spying” inside the United States, largely because their foreign operations are outside the jurisdiction and fetters of American law. We understand that our security requires that our domestic security service have wide intelligence-gathering latitude; but we do not permit it to be limitless — it must respect our constitutional rights.
So how do we make sure the FBI does that if we’re giving it license to investigate people even when it does not suspect a crime or a threat? We do it by dividing the subjects of its intelligence investigations into three classifications and giving the FBI commonsense authority to deal with each.
1. Aliens acting as overt foreign agents
The first classification, and the easiest to grasp, consists of aliens who overtly work as foreign agents. Such a person — for example, Sergey Kislyak, the Russian ambassador with whom General Flynn communicated — is a non-American (i.e., one who does not have the full-blown constitutional rights of an American citizen) and is openly acting on behalf of a foreign regime — in the case of Russia, a regime notoriously hostile to U.S. interests. Clearly, there is no problem with his being targeted by the FBI for intelligence-gathering purposes.
Note that, because the FBI is constrained by federal law, even overt foreign operatives have significant protections. It is still necessary, for example, for the FBI to get a judicial warrant to search a foreign agent’s home or intercept his phone and e-mail communications — and more on those warrants momentarily. Within the wide parameters of federal law, though, the FBI is free to monitor an overt foreign operative’s activities very aggressively, even when there is no suspicion of criminal wrongdoing or national-security threats. The presumption that our government is entitled to observe what foreign governments are up to on our soil is sufficient — and, of course, American officials operating overseas are routinely monitored by host governments (most of which are not so fastidious about civil liberties).
2. Americans acting as foreign agents — overt and covert
The second classification is more complicated: American citizens who act as agents of foreign powers. Contrary to the legal illiteracy dismayingly peddled by Fox News from time to time, one can be an American citizen and nonetheless be an agent of a foreign power, and therefore subject to investigation under the FBI’s foreign-intelligence-gathering authority, even if there is no suspicion of criminal wrongdoing.
The easy example in this second classification is an American who openly and formally declares himself to be a foreign agent. Many Americans do work for and advocate on behalf of foreign regimes. Our law mandates that they register with the Justice Department. They must make periodic disclosures detailing their relationship with the relevant foreign country, their activities on its behalf, the financial arrangements, and so on. The FBI is free to investigate such American foreign agents just as it investigates alien foreign agents; in fact, the point of the disclosure requirements is to make the foreign-intelligence something our government can passively collect rather than expend investigative resources to gather.
The more complex example is Americans who act as covert foreign agents. The detection of these Americans is obviously tougher but of greater urgency. After all, if their activities on behalf of foreign powers were benign, they would not be acting covertly — and here it is worth pointing out that, under federal law, “foreign powers” are not just other countries; they include international terrorist organizations. Some of the terrorists I prosecuted in the 1990s, for example, were American citizens (some born as such, some naturalized) who were operatives of foreign jihadist cells.
Whether they are Americans or aliens, covert foreign agents merit heightened scrutiny, such as eavesdropping on phone calls and e-mails, or “sneak and peek” searches (when agents covertly look around a home or office, maybe take pictures and plant bugs, but don’t leave evidence that they’ve been there). To get that kind of authority, as presaged above, the FBI and Justice Department must seek warrants from the secret court established by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (the FISA Court).
This requires a showing of probable cause. Significantly, this does not mean probable cause that a crime has been or is being committed — the traditional law-enforcement standard. Under FISA, the government must show probable cause that the target of its surveillance is acting as an agent of a foreign power. Libertarians complain that this is a lower standard, a sinister pretext to make it easier to hassle Americans in the absence of evidence that they’ve broken the law. But it is not a lower standard; it is the same standard (probable cause) for making a different showing (that one is a foreign agent). If you are a covert foreign agent, it should be easier for the FBI to investigate you, especially when it is doing so under judicial oversight.
3. Americans who are not foreign agents but may possess foreign intelligence
Covering overt and covert foreign agents does not complete the FBI’s intelligence mosaic. There are many Americans who do not act on behalf of foreign regimes but who are possessed of information that would be of great value to the FBI in understanding what foreign powers are up to — owing, for example, to their travels, business dealings, or academic concentrations. Plainly, we want the FBI to be able to seek this information. Yet we don’t want these Americans to be investigated — they should be thanked, not hassled. So how should our fellow citizens in this wholly innocent classification be handled? The FBI’s guidelines for domestic operations strike the right balance: “The FBI should . . . operate openly and consensually with U.S. persons to the extent practicable when collecting foreign intelligence that does not concern criminal activities or threats to the national security.”
Openly and consensually. That means FBI agents should tell Americans in this “non-foreign agent” classification that they are not under investigation or suspicion, and that their voluntary cooperation is requested to help the FBI protect the country against potentially harmful foreign activities. They should not be “grilled” as if they were suspects.
General Flynn’s situation
That brings us back, finally, to General Flynn. Anonymous intelligence officials (a category that may include the FBI — though we do not know who the leakers are) outrageously revealed to the New York Times that Flynn was subjected to FBI interrogation (“grilled,” the Times says) and that the Justice Department suspects that Flynn did not provide truthful, accurate information. That does not sound like a cordial, “open and consensual” conversation. It sounds like an investigation.
Why would Flynn be the subject of an investigation by the FBI and the Justice Department?
We are told that the FBI was monitoring the phone calls of Russian ambassador Kislyak under FISA. Makes sense — he’s an overt foreign agent from a hostile government. Flynn called Kislyak on December 29, 2016. It was not a nefarious communication: Flynn was a top adviser of then-president-elect Trump, a part of the Trump transition team, and just three weeks from formally becoming the new president’s national-security adviser. His communications with Kislyak were just some of the many conversations Flynn was having with foreign officials.
The call to Kislyak, of course, was intercepted. No doubt the calls of other American officials who have perfectly valid reasons to call Russian diplomats have been intercepted. It is the FBI’s scrupulous practice to keep the identities of such interceptees confidential. So why single Flynn out for identification, and for investigation? FBI agents did not need to “grill” Flynn in order to learn about the call — they had a recording of the call.
They also knew there was nothing untoward about the call. We know that from the Times report — a report that suggests an unseemly conjoining of investigative power to partisan politics.
The report informs us that as the FBI set its sights on Flynn, its agents were consulting with “Obama advisers.” Interesting, no? Ever since Hillary Clinton’s loss to Donald Trump on November 8, Obama’s Democratic party had been pushing a narrative that “Putin hacked the election.” The narrative continues to have two major flaws. First, while the Russian dictator may have preferred Trump to Clinton, there is no evidence that his Russian regime did anything to compromise the voting process. The media-Democrat complex has desperately sought to obscure this problem by emphasizing Putin’s likely role in publicizing embarrassing Democratic e-mail communications. Notwithstanding Democratic talking points, that is a far cry from “hacking” the voting process.
The second flaw is that, although Trump has made disturbingly flattering remarks about Putin, there is no evidence his campaign has given or promised Russia any actual accommodation in exchange for Putin’s favor. Democrats hope to erase this problem by finding something, anything, that could be spun as a quid pro quo. Obviously, they hoped the Flynn–Kislyak conversation would answer their prayers. No such luck.
As the Times puts it:
Obama officials asked the FBI if a quid pro quo had been discussed on the call, and the answer came back no, according to one of the officials, who like others asked not to be named discussing delicate communications. The topic of sanctions came up, they were told, but there was no deal.
Asked not to be named discussing delicate communications. That’s a good one. Let me translate: The officials don’t want you to know who they are because they are corrupt — (a) FISA intercepts are classified, so disclosing them to the press is a crime; (b) by revealing the Flynn–Kislyak conversation to the press, the “officials” inform the Russians that whatever countermeasures they are taking against U.S. surveillance have failed, assuring that the Russians will alter their tactics, making the job of our honorable intelligence agents more difficult; and (c) the FBI’s investigative powers are not supposed to be put in in the service of a political party’s effort to advance a partisan storyline, like “Putin hacked the election.”
So since there was no impropriety in Flynn’s call to the Russian ambassador, why did the Bureau continue investigating Flynn? Why did FBI agents interrogate him?
According to press reports of other rogue intelligence leaks, the FBI was sicced on Flynn after Trump officials gave inaccurate public statements about his conversation with Kislyak, to wit: They said that it had not touched on the punitive actions President Obama took against Russia on the same day the conversation took place, when in fact there had been some discussion of that topic — which the FBI and Justice Department knew from the recording. Specifically, Flynn denied any discussion of these sanctions, unnamed Trump officials denied it to the Washington Post, Vice President Pence denied it in a CBS interview shortly before the inauguration, and finally White House spokesman Sean Spicer denied it again on January 23. According to the Times, it was the Spicer denial that triggered the FBI’s interrogation. It was as if the Bureau and Justice Department intentionally waited to pounce until Trump was in power — which meant that any misstatement could now be framed as a false representation by the sitting president.
But just ask anyone who knows that you can’t keep your health-care plan and your doctor if you like them, that the Benghazi massacre was not caused by a video, that the IRS really did harass Americans over their political beliefs, and that Iran will be allowed to develop nuclear weapons. Anyone who knows those things — that would be all of us — also must know that misleading statements by presidential administrations, even egregious ones, are not grounds for FBI investigations. They are left to the political process to sort out, and we don’t want the FBI turned into a political weapon.
So how come the FBI got involved here?
Is the FBI saying that Mike Flynn is an agent of a foreign power? A covert Russian operative? That would be absurd. As I’ve detailed, Flynn is on record — unambiguously, in the core theme in his bestselling book — urging Americans to view Russia as an implacable enemy of the United States that must be checked. Now, are you unhappy — as I am unhappy — with the Trump administration’s blandishments toward the murderous, anti-American Putin regime? Sure . . . but that does not make Flynn and other Trump officials Russian agents — any more than Obama is an Iranian agent. Again, political disagreement is not a rationalization for drawing a ridiculous legal conclusion (“maybe he’s a ‘foreign agent’”) as a pretext for an investigation by the FBI.
Fear of blackmail? That is a theory purportedly advanced by former acting attorney general Sally Yates, an Obama political hack who was eventually fired for insubordination by Trump (who had foolishly retained her). The blackmail theory is almost too stupid to regurgitate. If you can follow this, the idea is that the Russians knew that Flynn withheld information about his Kislyak call from the Trump administration and was therefore vulnerable to extortion — i.e., the Russians could expose his concealment if he didn’t do their bidding. It should go without saying that blackmail works only if the compromising information is not in the possession of the aggrieved party. Here, the United States — i.e., the Trump administration itself — had a recording of the Flynn–Kislyak call, a fact that both Russia and Flynn (who is deeply versed in intelligence craft) had to know was highly likely.
Finally, there’s Flynn’s supposed potential criminal violation of the 1799 Logan Act. Recall what we said at the start: The FBI’s criminal investigation and domestic security functions overlap. If there is not a valid foreign-intelligence basis to investigate someone, a potential law violation could do the trick. But . . . the Logan Act? Are you kidding?
The statute is a discredited relic of the President John Adams administration’s over-criminalization of political speech on the grounds of its purported seditiousness. It is a highly dubious prohibition against foreign-policy freelancing by American citizens acting without executive-branch permission. As Jeremy Duda comprehensively explains in the Washington Post, in its 218-year history, there has been just a single Logan Act prosecution, ever — an unsuccessful, aborted charge brought in 1803 by an Adams-appointed U.S. attorney.
It is not enough to say it is ludicrous to contemplate a Logan Act prosecution against a transition official who was the incoming national-security adviser over a phone call with a foreign ambassador. Beyond that, we must refer to the high-profile July 2016 press conference held by FBI director James Comey.
In contrast to General Flynn, as to whom there is no evidence of criminal wrongdoing, there was a Mount Olympus of damning proof that Hillary Clinton committed felony violations of a law against mishandling classified information. Yet Director Comey concluded that “no reasonable prosecutor” would consider indicting Mrs. Clinton. Why? Because behavior of the type in which she engaged is never prosecuted. Now it happens that Comey was wrong about Clinton — to make his assertion, he had to paint a narrowly skewed picture of her misconduct and ignore several prosecutions of military officials for far less serious violations. Nevertheless, he does run the Bureau, and so we must assume that his explicit guidance governs its investigative standards: “Responsible decisions . . . consider the context of a person’s actions, and how similar situations have been handled in the past.”
If that is the standard, there was no conceivable chance that Flynn could ever be prosecuted for a Logan Act violation. Using the Logan Act as a pretext for interrogation would have been improper.
And Flynn is not a foreign agent.
And there was no need to “grill” him over the contents of a conversation of which the FBI and Justice Department already had a recording.
And the FBI has no business probing the veracity of public statements made by presidential administrations for political purposes — something it certainly resisted doing during the Obama administration.
There appears to have been no foreign-intelligence or criminal-investigative purpose served by the FBI’s interrogation of General Flynn. It is easy to see why Democrats would want to portray Flynn’s contact with the Russian ambassador as worthy of an FBI investigation. But why did the FBI and the Justice Department investigate Flynn — and why did “officials” make sure the press found out about it?
— Andrew C. McCarthy is a senior policy fellow at the National Review Institute and a contributing editor of National Review.
Obviously, the last thing we would want (regardless of party or vote) is a White House in collusion with a foreign adversary.
Relieved that the Flynn - Russia phone calls is a non story, and the nation can now move forward.
He thinks sharia is about to break out everywhere.
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...and you act dismissive about his Flynn article and instead decide to posture on his Sharia Law view.
BTW, the defendants were convicted of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and of planning a series of attacks against New York City landmarks. He also contributed to the prosecutions of terrorists who bombed U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.
He has forgotten more about Islamofacists than you will ever be capable of knowing. (unless, of course you also used to work for the Justice Department)
You are being obtuse, as per usual.
He's full of shit.
We are not talking about the undeniably theological tenets of Islam (e.g., the oneness of Allah, the acceptance of Mohammed as the final prophet, and the Koran as Allah’s revelation). We are talking about a framework for the political organization of the state, and about the implementation of a legal corpus that is blatantly discriminatory, hostile to liberty, and — in its prescriptions of crime and punishment — cruel.
As for your claim that he's full of shit, that's not only crude (which I expect of you) but also vague and obtuse, once again.
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Obama-linked activists have a ‘training manual’ for protesting Trump
NY Post
By Paul Sperry February 18, 2017 | 10:30am
An Obama-tied activist group training tens of thousands of agitators to protest President Trump’s policies plans to hit Republican lawmakers supporting those policies even harder this week, when they return home for the congressional recess and hold town hall meetings and other functions.
Organizing for Action, a group founded by Obama and featured prominently on his new post-presidency website, is distributing a training manual to anti-Trump activists that advises them to bully GOP lawmakers into backing off support for repealing ObamaCare, curbing immigration from high-risk Islamic nations, and building a border wall.
In a new Facebook post, OFA calls on activists to mobilize against Republicans from now until Feb. 26, when “representatives are going to be in their home districts.”
The protesters disrupted town halls earlier this month, including one held in Utah by House Oversight Chairman Jason Chaffetz, who was confronted by hundreds of angry demonstrators claiming to be his constituents.
The manual, published with OFA partner “Indivisible,” advises protesters to go into halls quietly so as not to raise alarms, and “grab seats at the front of the room but do not all sit together.” Rather, spread out in pairs to make it seem like the whole room opposes the Republican host’s positions. “This will help reinforce the impression of broad consensus.” It also urges them to ask “hostile” questions — while keeping “a firm hold on the mic” — and loudly boo the the GOP politician if he isn’t “giving you real answers.”
“Express your concern [to the event’s hosts] they are giving a platform to pro-Trump authoritarianism, racism, and corruption,” it says.
The goal is to make Republicans, even from safe districts, second-guess their support for the Trump agenda, and to prime “the ground for the 2018 midterms when Democrats retake power.”
“Even the safest [Republican] will be deeply alarmed by signs of organized opposition,” the document states, “because these actions create the impression that they’re not connected to their district and not listening to their constituents.”
After the event, protesters are advised to feed video footage to local and national media.
“Unfavorable exchanges caught on video can be devastating” for Republican lawmakers, it says, when “shared through social media and picked up by local and national media.” After protesters gave MSNBC, CNN and the networks footage of their dust-up with Chaffetz, for example, the outlets ran them continuously, forcing Chaffetz to issue statements defending himself.
The manual also advises protesters to flood “Trump-friendly” lawmakers’ Hill offices with angry phone calls and emails demanding the resignation of top White House adviser Steve Bannon.
A script advises callers to complain: “I’m honestly scared that a known racist and anti-Semite will be working just feet from the Oval Office … It is everyone’s business if a man who promoted white supremacy is serving as an adviser to the president.”
The document provides no evidence to support such accusations.
Protesters, who may or may not be affiliated with OFA, are also storming district offices. Last week, GOP Rep. Dana Rohrabacher blamed a “mob” of anti-Trump activists for knocking unconscious a 71-year-old female staffer at his Southern California office. A video of the incident, showing a small crowd around an opening door, was less conclusive.
Separately, OFA, which is run by ex-Obama officials and staffers, plans to stage 400 rallies across 42 states this year to attack Trump and Republicans over ObamaCare’s repeal.
“This is a fight we can win,” OFA recently told its foot soldiers. “They’re starting to waver.”
On Thursday, Trump insisted he’s moving ahead with plans to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act, which has ballooned health-insurance premiums and deductibles. “Obamacare is a disaster, folks,” he said, adding that activists protesting its repeal are hijacking GOP town halls and other events.
“They fill up our rallies with people that you wonder how they get there,” the president said. “But they’re not the Republican people that our representatives are representing.”
As The Post reported, OFA boasts more than 250 offices nationwide and more than 32,000 organizers, with another 25,000 actively under training. Since November, it’s beefed up staff and fundraising, though as a “social welfare” non-profit, it does not have to reveal its donors.
These aren’t typical Black Lives Matter or Occupy Wall Street marchers, but rather professionally trained organizers who go through a six-week training program similar to the training — steeped in Alinsky agitation tactics — Obama received in Chicago when he was a community organizer.
Chicago socialist Saul Alinsky, known by the left as “the father of community organizing,” taught radicals to “rub raw the sores of discontent” and create the conditions for a “revolution.” He dedicated his book, “Rules for Radicals,” to “Lucifer.” Michelle Obama quoted from the book when she helped launch OFA in 2013.
Obama appears to be behind the anti-Trump protests. He praised recent demonstrations against Trump’s travel ban. And last year, after Trump’s upset victory, he personally rallied OFA troops to “protect” his legacy in a conference call. “Now is the time for some organizing,” he said. “So don’t mope” over the election results.
He promised OFA activists he would soon join them in the fray.
“Understand that I’m going to be constrained in what I do with all of you until I am again a private citizen, but that’s not so far off,” he said. “You’re going to see me early next year, and we’re going to be in a position where we can start cooking up all kinds of great stuff.”
Added the ex-president: “I promise you that next year Michelle and I are going to be right there with you, and the clouds are going to start parting, and we’re going to be busy. I’ve got all kinds of thoughts and ideas about it, but this isn’t the best time to share them.
“Point is, I’m still fired up and ready to go, and I hope that all of you are, as well.”
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Why?
Only Flynn knows.
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that your brain can coordinate with your hand to open the front door. You're a supreme pussy.
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and he resigned (probably forced) from the NSA. There's no question he overstepped, but labeling him as "fucked up" is a bit much. Flynn was an exceptional intel officer and he might have fucked up, but that doesn't make him fucked up.
Your mileage may vary though.
not a couple of instances where there are "possible" fuck ups. You have no idea of his military career, I take it. Google him and tell me what you think. Not the record of someone who's fucked up.
More than a couple of instances of incidental fuck ups.
Insubordination?
"Flynn, it should be noted, was fired by President Obama. Fox News reports that his military career ended when Obama dismissed him as head of the Defense Intelligence Agency in 2014. Flynn has said he was pushed out for holding tougher views than Obama about Islamic extremism (this was a man who once said, “fear of Muslims is rational”). But Fox reports that a former senior U.S. official said the firing was for insubordination, after Flynn failed to follow guidance from superiors."
Not following the guidance or "free lancing" is frowned upon in the military. Unfortunately, some leaders have to do it to save lives and it's a fact that Flynn's actions in the War on Terror saved countless American lives. His men loved him as did his immediate subordinates. Those that didn't like Flynn were politicians like Obama who refused to call the terrorists, "Radical Islamists".
He's not a fuck up, IMO.
Insubordination is not following orders. If you can't do what you are directed to do by your superiors, you resign. You don't stay and undermine those that you are working for which is exactly what he did. That's dishonorable.
What did he do that saved countless lives? Hadn't heard that one before.
and please know that I'm no fan of motherfuckers playing the "Lone Ranger", but there are times that shit needs to get done immediately.
FYI, I have some buddies that are still in the Army today that benefitted from Intel gathered by Flynn and his men. One of my buddies is a Brigade Commander that had many good things to say about Flynn and how much he helped him in combat situations. Flynn was in charge of the DIA, you know.
Never heard that before.
in charge of the DIA. You do know what the DIA does, don't you? Just incase you don't, the DIA provides war fighters with "real time" intelligence in theatre. This intel is acquired many ways, but the most accurate intel is gathered from spec. operators.
FYI, Flynn was the G2 for my unit in the 82nd Airborne Division for a little while. He later served as the chief G2 for the XVIII Airborne Corps...
Obviously, he did it well as he got three stars. I thought you were talking about something above and beyond what his job was to do.
And even he did it the absolute best, that still doesn't excuse insubordination or lying.
I'm withholding judgment about any alleged ties to Russia during the campaign.
by the intel that was gathered. Like I said above, I judge a man by his entire career.
Obviously he had a distinguished military career. All of them at that level do. It's not a free pass to then do what he did.
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whether you like thatnpolicy or not? If so, then no misspelling.
He obviously left out key points of the conversation. Regarding undermining Barry...that's open for debate, for sure.
approach. That's okay. But you resign at that point. You don't stay in that position in an administration you completely disagree with.
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