against black people in America right now?
With very few (but notable) exceptions, all the white people I know treat people of other races as good or better than other whites.
The problem is so much of our society is built upon racism...The most significant to today's situation, but the least talked about was the practice of redlining. Through redlining, only white families were able to own valuable properties. Minorities couldn't. This created the vast wealth discrepancy between races that has been passed on generationally. Through acknowledgment of this racist history, there has been a push for more racial equity. Unfortunately, this has ignored poor whites who are at just as much of a disadvantage, which is why so many poor whites now also feel discriminated against (probably validly). I think this is why so many poor whites love Trump. Unfortunately for them, Trump didn't make their situation better (which is not surprising given he's a billionaire country clubber from NY), but he knew how to tap into their anger.
The solution is to continue to push for racial equity, while not leaving behind poor white families. Not all white people are born into privilege, and the Left needs to remember that. The Right needs to not deny that for most of its history, the US was racist, creating systemic challenges that can't be corrected through the free market alone. Unfortunately, both sides are getting further and further from where they should be going.
White Privilege. It's not necessarily and economic discrepancy in fact, it has little to do with wealth.
Redlining was and is just one issue of racism black Americans have had to deal with over the last couple of centuries.
As with most difficult issues, the answers usually lie between the extremes.
The nation as a whole has made great strides in this area. To deny this is foolishness. Has discrimination been completely erased institutionally, I’m skeptical, but I’m not skeptical that it largely or close to wholly has been. If you are a person of color who wants to succeed today in America, there is little reason why you can’t.
So then why the continuing discrepancy between whites and blacks in poverty, housing, crime, education, etc? Why is there an apparently pervasive sub culture in this community of problems and failure in these areas? This is where the dishonesty is particularly strong. It is dishonest and wrong to blame this completely on residual racism and discrimination while ignoring problematic behavior and cultural problems in that community, as well as the failures and exacerbation of the problems by some of the programs designed by the govt. This is the dishonesty of the left. It is equally dishonest and wrong to say that that there are zero residual effects and impact from over 200 years of slavery and Jim Crow on these behaviors and this culture, that blacks now stand entirely equal and on the same footing as whites not withstanding this horrible history, and that all of these problems are caused by govt programs. That is the dishonesty of the right.
So where does this leave us as a society? Hopefully more willing to engage in more honest discussion. Hopefully, more willing to critically examine our own beliefs on the subject as opposed to our gotcha politics. For example, my personal view is that the bigger issue today is cultural and behavioral within the minority community as opposed to residual racism. However, I’m not going to stick my head in the mud and deny the role that historical racism has played and may still be playing in all of this. The only way to solve the issue is to as truthfully as possible examine the contributing factors and then deal with them.
Can you give an example of the notable exceptions of people that don't treat other races as good or better than whites?
Redlining: Done away with decades ago. In fact, an affirmative action mortgage program was launched, encouraging mortgages being granted to people who couldn't afford them, leading to the 2008 crash.
You said: "Unfortunately, this [favoritism to poor minorities] has ignored poor whites who are at just as much of a disadvantage, which is why so many poor whites now also feel discriminated against (probably validly). I think this is why so many poor whites love Trump."
I think this is correct.
"Unfortunately for them, Trump didn't make their situation better...." I don't know why you would say that. He manifestly did make it better. The "only" thing good about him was his policies.
"The solution is to continue to push for racial equity, while not leaving behind poor white families. Not all white people are born into privilege, and the Left needs to remember that. " Setting aside your use of equity, which has become a synonym for discrimination, I will say this is basically true. Will not happen. The Left will not allow that.
"The Right needs to not deny that for most of its history, the US was racist..." No one denies that. No one. The Left needs to admit that we have made great strides, and that society is no longer racist today.
"...creating systemic challenges that can't be corrected through the free market alone." Systemic is not a synonym for difficult. The free market can help the poor. But, we do need to stop focusing on victim status, and return to the "everyone can succeed" rugged individualism. Minorities that immigrate here do much better than minorities who grow up in the United States because minorities who move here believe themselves to be lucky and they see opportunity, while domestic minorities believe themselves to be victims and are daily (wrongly) told they cannot succeed because the system holds them back. If the system held back people of color, then immigrants of color would not succeed, but they do. It is domestic culture which holds back many, not skin color. I'm speaking statistically here. Obviously, individuals can succeed and do succeed. I see them where I live all the time. People can escape the culture which holds them back, but individualism is what allows it, not putting them in a racial class to hold individuals back.
at this point. I do think that white individuals are allowed to be discriminated against at will now without repercussions. Does that mean that we don't have racism issues in America 50 years after Jim Crow? Absolutely not. Is discriminating against whites going to accomplish some "end goal" to try and right a wrong from prior generations? Absolutely not. Am I going to be called a racist for these comments, I am sure I will. Does it make it true? Absolutely not.
The question being - in today’s world is there more discrimination against whites than black/brown people. The answer to that is, NO.
You’re talking reparations today for issues created many generations ago.
There is systemic racism in the US and it’s deeply embedded in our justice system.
The race grievance hustlers on both sides add little to it.
In other words. I think there is a fair amount of misunderstanding and issues on all sides to go around. People are people. They aren’t different in their attitudes because of their skin colors.
Blacks are not a monolithic group, and it seems racist to act as if that they are. One of my liberal friends seems to think that my African-American neighbor has more in common with the 2020 summer BLM rioters, but nothing could be further from the truth. My neighbors are just like me, in values, civility, income...you name it. That doesn't mean we agree politically. But I am more like them, and they are more like me, than the race mongers want to admit. Grouping them by race with others is actually divisive...but divisiveness is gasoline for political engines.
is that as a nation we have made huge strides in combating discrimination and racism of all types in the last 50 years and not enough credit is given for that. Do I think it’s been entirely eradicated institutionally? Let’s just say I’m skeptical of that broad a claim.
I also don’t get the latest victimization culture coming from the white right.
I domagree with you that people are people and that looking in terms of monolithic racial groups is counter productive.
What passes for victimization or oppression here is silly compared to actual oppression elsewhere in the world and throughout history.
the one victimized today” is particularly silly.
the only people I hear claiming that white men are "victims" are lefties and feminists. As near as I can tell, the logic here is that if someone points out some sort of wrong or unconstitutional law or rule, and it deals with a group out of favor, that person is portraying himself and members of his group as oppressed victims. Why do we apply this only to disfavored groups? Maybe I can boil this down: is there ever an instance in which white male heterosexuals can point out discriminatory/biased treatment without automatically rendering themselves whiny victims?
You are also really funny when you try not to be. “The only people claiming white men are victims are leftists and feminists”. Yet we know there are clearly those claiming that every day right here. In fact they claim that whites face more discrimination and prejudice than blacks. Whites, the only victims left.
Why are you being so silly? I didn't claim "QAnon" doesn't exist. I claimed that the only people I ever hear discussing it are lefty, Jim types. Why are you so cranky the last couple days? And why haven't you weighed in with Biden's positive executive orders/initiatives above?
I noticed you didn't answer my question, so I will ask again to avoid any more shuffling on your part: is there ever a time when a white heterosexual male can note discrimrnatory treatment of people within that classification without rendering himself a whiny victim? Or is that reserved for the "truly oppressed?"
And you are every bit as cranky on this subject.
Your question is a complete straw man. It’s not whether that EVER can occur, it’s whether the constant drumbeat of it day after day here isn’t a manifestation of your whiny, grievance culture beliefs.
You used "strawman" because you made an obvious strawman in your previous post. You know that.
You don't like the fact that I harp on this cultural revolution that you had some small part in furthering. I can take it. I subjected myself to four years of your hand-wringing and prophecies of doom, so I can make it through your stern disapproval. And you can make it through a few years of me talking about the cultural arsonists. Buck up.
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Percentage? Absolute numbers? Instances of institutionalized bias? All of the above?
A related question for you. What percentage of African Americans have a negative view of white people compared to the percentage of whites who have a negative view of AAs?
If you want a guess I would go with blacks having a more negative impression of whites, since Jim Crow existed into the mid 1960’s.
I only believe polls that support my positions though.
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Especially when most of the MAGA nation here believe there is no systemic racism left against black folks and that there has been a concomitant rise in discrimination against whites.
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You've been awfully defensive and surly the last couple days.
America. I have made no such claim one way or another.
Plus you know I’m always a cranky pants here.
and that exists primarily in government institutions. When I press people for evidence of institutional racism, I invariably get "disparities" in arrest/conviction rates and sentences, along with the good ole "redlining" example. The latter is an old example, and the former is born of terrible social science, ignoring all sorts of variables.
Since your query was really a rhetorical, can you point me to evidence of institutional racism in our society against minority groups? This can public or private sector examples.
to name a few. It’s far from a settled issue.
And if you are right going from completely Jim Crow to completely race neural as far as blacks in 50 years has to make us the most exemplary people in the world, yes?
Not, "Some people say..."
Are we talking "disparities" again? Given the allegedly commonplace discrimination, we should expect boatloads of racial discrimination lawsuits and documentation. That would be some good evidence. Do you have that evidence? I'd particularly love to hear of actual evidence of institutional racism against minority students. What is that evidence, again?
When have I ever claimed that we are "race neutral?" I don't think that's even possible.
bold claim of absolute zero institutional racism in America against black folk, and that it has been entirely extinguished in 50 years.
Others claim it’s rampant.
Burden is on you to justify this broad claim.
People have asserted that there is institutional racism. I'm asking for evidence. I don't have to prove or demonstrate it doesn't exist. That's your task. So far, you've offered nothing.
I made a completely truthful statement that there are others who completely disagree with you. Not my burden to advance their cause.
I think there is very much an open debate as to how much institutional racism, if any, remains 50 years after Jim Crow. That’s my position . I know it doesn’t fit nicely with in your absolutist world view, but there you have it. So, I don’t need to be comfortable defending it’s continued existences as I’m not advocating that. You on the other hand in post after post claim it to be completely, (not just mostly or partly) eradicated. You do have a burden to show that and it’s a bold claim. The fact that it’s difficult to do so isn’t my issue, it’s yours. The fact that you can’t do so may mean you should moderate your position.
I’m not a fan of the victim culture. Those that claim the eradication of institutional racism against one group while promoting its existence against others, need to prove it.
For example, when you or someone else notes "disparities" in the criminal justice system, I point to the disparities in crime commission rates. The other day, conor trotted out the old one about blacks being sentenced more harshly for identical crimes. I pointed out that these analyses leave out the variable of aggravating circumstances. When police-suspect talk emerges, I point out that white suspect are slightly more likely to be shot by the police, rather than the other way around. If someone claims that our school system targets black students for suspensions/expulsions, I point out the skip/truancy rates at black schools. I asked before what would constitute "proof" that institutional racism does not exist. You didn't respond. I can guess why.
You think the claim that there isn't evidence of institutional racism is a bold one. I don't think it is. Two of the most significant pieces of legislation in our history addressed and ameliorated most of it happened a half-century ago. In addition, and as a result, we saw a radical new socialization on race. There are obviously prejudiced individuals who racially discriminate. There always will be. The idea that I have to prove our institutions don't systematically discriminate is laughable. Were you receptive to the idea that you needed to prove that the election wasn't stolen from Trump, given our nation's history of electoral funny business, or did you hold the position that even despite our history, the people making the initial claim needed to prove it did happen?
positive assertion that it doesn’t exist. I’m open to the fact that it does still in some forms. It may, or may not. You are the one though that has totally foreclosed it’s continued existence. It’s yer burden to back that up which you manifestly can’t do.
positive evidence for its existence. Maybe it exists. I used to be amenable to that position. However, I had to come to terms with the fact that there just isn't any evidence of its continued existence. And, as I point out, there are plenty of good reasons with regards to employment, criminal justice, schools, that it does not exist because there are much better explanations for such "disparities."
Can you prove that the election wasn't stolen from Trump, which I believe is your position?
BTW, are you becoming Woke-curious?
different, more malevolent explanation. That’s why your absolutist claim is such BS.
Which is also the difference in your inapplicable election false equivalence. There are no reasonable explanations which support the widespread fraud needed to support the steal.
And no, I’m nowhere near woke. I despise their BS as much as yours. Use to respect you for having some of that skepticism of both sides. They just aren’t bombarding the board every day with their take.
I already stated that. In fact, I could be wrong about every single thing I believe. I've changed my mind on so many fundamental things, from God on down, how could I not hold that position? What are some, dare I say it, existential things upon which you've changed your mind? Come to think of it, when is the last time you admitted to being wrong about anything here?
My "absolutist claim is false?" See, now by your standard, you just made a claim. Now prove it false. Isn't this fun? You stated that you believe that there could be institutional racism. Upon which evidence does this belief that it might exist rest? I know I've asked this four times already, but I figure by 4:00 in the afternoon, the shuffling gets to be a bit taxing. After all, it took most of the day to get you to stop being coy and just come out with your actual position on this.
You lost respect for me because I'm not skeptical about my skepticism of "systemic racism?" Interesting. Sounds like your respect wasn't that deep to begin with.
You were the one no longer skeptical, not me.
From the start, I said I was open to the possibility of continued institutional racism in America. Just a crazy indefensible position, I know. You have been the absolute denialist not me. You are the one with every explanation of why it absolutely can’t exist. For you to now raise never being wrong is laughable. You really are funny.
Leaving aside your disingenuousness in claiming that you're not implying anything about the topic with this thread, how precisely would you expect me or anyone else to prove that institutional racism does not exist? Should I produce documentation of the absence of racial discrimination lawsuits? The absence of racial motives in suspending black students from school? How would that work?
In contrast, it's much clearer how the people making the assertion could prove their positions: discovering documentation of systematic racial job discrimination, documentation/video/audio evidence of school administrators deliberately targeting black students, and so forth.
When someone shuffles as you're doing in this thread, it tells me that he's not confident in his position and is trying to avoid the central issue. If you wish to be coy and pretend that you weren't implying that white guys are lamenting their discrimination and that this is silly, proceed. It appeared from the first response to your initial query, someone was onto what you were doing. To then claim, "Hey, I'm not saying it, just some people say it's true" is weasely.
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I'm sure there are individuals who violate systemic policies, rules, laws and training, and discriminate against minorities...but always going opposite to the system. But, no one can offer an example of systemic racism against minorities, like withholding vaccines from minorities as a matter of policy solely because of their skin color (as is being done to some whites) or handing out cash to only whites solely because of their skin color (as is being done for some minorities).
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Your other posts in this thread seem to disagree with that. I don't think you are being consistent.
I haven't weighed in on racism in general.
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I was commenting on only a subcategory of racism that is alleged to exist, but no evidence can be provided for it. My position is consistent and unchanged. You want to change it, so you accuse me of shuffling, when you are the one changing things around. Very duplicitous. It shows your position is weak in that you have to lie to support it.
This includes both institutional and non. Are you saying there is more non institutional racism against blacks than whites?
Shuffle Neddie, shuffle.
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you have avoided giving it.
Be better than Jim with this gotcha silliness. But you cannot deny that in the name of "justice" it's becoming ok to make policy against white cisgender Christian men (especially) and women.
However in an effort to stay in your good graces I will answer - False.
So if i may, a counter question: how much responsibility do black folks share for their part in all this? Zero? 25%? 50%? Is there any culpability among this community? Or is it all one way traffic again?
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