So if both natural and vax immunity wanes with these variants, isn’t the smartest course to get
vaxxed and boostered so you don’t get seriously ill or die, while helping to crash our health care system?
If it were just the former I doubt I would care that much, people make their own dumbass choices and take the consequences, but the impact on our health care system could be grave. So do your nation a patriotic favor plague rats, if you are unvaxxed and get seriously sick, just man up and crawl into yer holes and go away.
Replies to: So if both natural and vax immunity wanes with these variants, isn’t the smartest course to get
Like I said above. The docs I know aren't pushing the booster...
if you aren't older or have comorbidities. They all seem to think it's fine to wait until there is more data available.
The CDC and NIH are. Good enough for me. The risk isn’t worth it. You still beg my question anyway.
The real risk is the unvaxxed flooding the HC system which is gonna happen.
30% not vaxxed at all is a recipe for disaster with these variants.
Everyone should get vaccinated. I certainly agree on that.
I stop short at mandating it though.
Yeah, unfortunately I agree with you. The stupidity and consequences to the country though are
enormous.
You're not wrong there.
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Time for the Great Fauchino to admit he was wrong, we cannot vaccinate our way out of this
And to be straight with us that the vaccine does one thing and one thing only - protect the person vaccinated.
We need to quit pretending vaccines are going to prevent the virus from spreading.
That in and of itself is reason to get it unless you want to overwhelm the HC system.
It protects against serious illness and disease.
But here's the problem
Case counts are all that seem to matter to the Great Fauchino, and this concept is aided and abetted by an all-too-willing media.
So even though vaccines work to prevent serious illness and death, omicron case counts will be relatively high. And then 4-6 months from now another variant will pop up, leading to the predictable dire warnings from Fauchino and the media. And then another 4-6 months after that, etc
Your Fauchino BS is the problem. What matters is people getting seriously sick or dying.
That is happening with the unvaxxed and is going to increase. Ordinarily I don’t care about morons who put their health at risk. I do care what it will do to the HC system and the economy. Repeating idjit nonsense like the Great Fauchino doesn’t change that truth.
As soon as we get 10 jabs each we'll be safe.
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If only they would commit to capping it at 10, and then promise to eliminate all other restrictions.
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I agree that it is the wisest thing to do... but I simply have never had any fears of vaccinations.
I will always respect the fears of others.
I do have some of my own.
And probably would be wise to have more... regarding a couple legal forms of self abuse.
Anyone who denies having any is lying to his or her self.
The fight is about children and working place mandate, not about to vax or not to vax
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Covid is a risk. Vaccination is a risk (e.g., myocarditis) with questionable protection. Dice roll.
If you are not in a class of people for whom covid is a death risk, then maybe you don't vaccinate because doing so would get you questionable protection (to you and to society at large) from covid but put you in a class of people for which a vaccination side effect is a death risk. I can see people making a rational decision for themselves going either way.
Not a dice roll...everyone, please read the linked article...Ned, you do as you please, you're
obviously trying hard not to face facts.
All over the world we're seeing numbers like 98% of ICU patients are unvaccinated...Google it for yourself if you have any doubt.
There is no rational excuse for not getting vaccinated.
Link: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination
He's actually correct. You need to take age into account, not just who's vaccinated
Singapore had the best chart, showing overwhelmingly ICU admissions were those 60 and over and paltry for those 50 and under.
Crafting policy by pretending all age groups are equally likely to face problems is sheer stupidity.
What percentage is unvaccinated in those cases?...that's the question that needs focus...we've
already gone over the myo/peri-cardio issue (i.e. virtually no hospitalizations)....this is not a coin flip or dice roll, Mark.
Unvaccinated young people are not the problem
Older unvaccinated people are. The death numbers and hospitalizations still skew heavily towards this demographic, despite media portrayals that omit this crucial fact.
Unvaxxed people filling up hospitals is the problem. Not all are older Some are middle aged and
younger. My 27 year old healthy son in law almost died of it. There are enough unvaxxed young who get serious symptoms coupled with the rest to swamp the system. You have to be a moron to be completely unvaxxed in the face of what’s happening.
And as long as you don't understand math (or won't understand), they seem equivalent
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Feel free to publish the equation you are using, if things are that simple.
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It is that simple. It’s not even a close call. You think the NIH and CDC are lying knock yourself
out. Millions of doses have been given with safety, but yeah keep on making excuses.
Take your chance, but don’t burden the health system when it turns out you made the wrong call.
If they say no long term side effect, they lie. If they say they don't know, they shouldn't mandate
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The math is always "simple" for those who don't have the brains to comprehend complexity.
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Exactly, they really populate the CDC and NIH, right? You sound like an ass.
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CDC/NIH are run by politicians. Their statements have to be evaluated by individuals.
They want children to get untested vaccines (and yes, I am using the word "vaccines" loosely here to include the Pfizer and Moderna shots), and that is kind of crazy. Not sure Biden, Harris, Chris94 and you would be embracing those statements if Trump had won, which is telling.
As for me, somethings the CDC say make sense, and I pay attention to those for me. But, I don't run around trying to force other people to do anything.
People like you who know more? They aren’t political entities when it comes to keeping people alive.
They are the top professionals in this area. But yeah, you know better.
Correct. The CDC doesn't know me. My doctor does, though. I do, though.
And, more important than anything else, I have the right to control my own healthcare. I know you disagree with that, but that is why those who love freedom must strongly oppose people like you.
I already said have all the freedom you want to be a moron.
Just don’t feck up the HC system with your nonsense when you get sick.
The fact that you took the shots as a “healthy person” says all you need to know about the your BS construct.
Thank you for diagnosing me as healthy. I appreciate that.
I just didn't know you had to hold my balls while I coughed 10 times. Do you do that for everyone?
It is simple. The risk is not comparable.
800K dead from covid in this country.
I win.
You ignore all the variables. Here is my math.
(I just typed this out while watching football, so I'm sure I will have to edit it up...especially for formatting to make it more readable.)
Generally, the principle is Risk = Probability x Harm (This is a commonly used decision making equation when you have imperfect information, it is an equation used in gambling, and it is the basis of Pascal's wager, among other things.)
So, looking at the risk of Covid:
-----
Risk of Covid = Probability of Contracting x Harm of Contracting
RC = PC x HC
PC is high. Covid is very contagious (apparently?...I just lived in a home with someone who had it, and I did not catch it, but, whatever...let's say contractability is high).
HC is very low for healthy people, but very high for other people.
So, for healthy people, RC = High x Low...so Risk of Covid is a mid level risk.
For elderly or sick people, RC = High x High...so Risk of Covid is very high for those people
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Benefit of Vaccination = Protection Gained - (Probability of Side Effect)(Harm of Side Effect)
BV = PG - (PSE x HSE)
PG is, apparently, not robust. You can still get covid easily, but it possibly diminishes the harm of covid (HC)...but if HC is already low, then diminishing HC is not a big deal for those people. If HC is high (e.g., elderly, or people with other comorbidities), then diminishing HC can be a big deal.
PSE is low. That is, side effects are rare.
HSE is potentially very high (e.g., myocarditis is serious business, and can kill you, so the harm of side effect is pretty high).
So, to calculate the Benefit of Vaccination for healthy people,
BV = Low - (Low)(High)...which is near zero, and possibly negative, so the benefit of vaccination is quite low or negative. It is rational for these people to not get vaccinated.
For people at high risk,
BC = Mid - (Low)(High)...so there is some benefit of vaccination for individuals with high covid risk.
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Granted, if your analysis is limited to "do what the Party says," the issue is more simple for you.
Ned, does it trouble you at all that you have NO DATA? ;-)...you must have found a very nice bottle
wine this evening and you're probably almost done with it...but don't just revel in the glow...do a little work...
On the issue of your most serious side effect concern...I DO have data (see link)...for myocarditis and pericarditis, slightly over 2M vaccinated individuals were studied...NO DEATHS and NO ICU hospitalizations...whenever you get around to "fleshing out" your equations, be sure to use the DATA that's in the linked report.
Link: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2782900
Utter bullshit. Who are healthy people? What age groups? Lots of peeps who thought
they were healthy are clogging up ICU’s right now. You consider yourself healthy? Why did you get the shot then? This can make so called healthy people very sick and waste millions in HC resources. The risk from the jab is minuscule on the other side.
Someone is emotional, and not intellectual about this. Surprise, surprise.
I got the shot because my personal variables, evaluated by my personal judgement, led to a rational decision to get vaccinated.
Other people have different variables, and they will evaluate those variables differently, so they will come to different decisions.
If you don't see individuals, but you only see groups such as political opponents and political allies, then the math is indeed very simple for you. Vaccination Decision = (What will help my political party) x (What will gain me points on the Open)
Great non answer. You consider yourself healthy? Why get the shot? Your risk is low if you are
healthy. AmIrite? But you got it anyway despite that low risk? AmIrite again? So you essentially disregard your own BS analysis. AmIrite once again? You are a pathetic partisan.
Interesting that you think you understand my health variables better than I do. Typical...
Typical of the authoritarian Left, that is.
Another great non answer. What risks did you have under your analysis as a healthy person
that compelled the shot? Or is it as I contend that your artificial construct is BS that you didn’t even follow?
Thankfully for me, you are not my doctor.
I realize that an increasing lack of information makes people like you ever more confident in your position, but also thankfully, I'm fine for you to continue to live in ignorance.
Uhm your diversion attempt sucks. You listed the risk criteria. I simply point out that under yer
own ludicrous construct there was no reason for you to get the shots unless you were “unhealthy” which you haven’t claimed to be. Ergo it’s yer usual BS as even you didn’t follow it.
Did you get all that from the last exam you gave me?
My decision is only a problem if you make assumptions you are unqualfied and uninformed enough to make.
Using your assumptions idjit. You can’t defend them so you shuffle and deflect.
You are either unhealthy or the vax served no risk purpose for you.
Thanks for the insult, but you are using your own assumptions about my health over past year.
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Nope, using yer assumptions. You are either unhealthy or your risk construct is yer usual BS.
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You make no sense. Par for the course. Quickly reaching the point of diminishing returns with you.
You really think your baseless assumptions about my health are more accurate than what I know about my health? I would suggest that it is far more likely that your baseless assumptions about me are wrong rather than what I know about myself being wrong.
I just looked and you are now on version 7. Actually version 10 with your complete rewrite edits
here. You never have indicated you were unhealthy. If you are say it, but you won’t cause you likely aren’t.
I've never made any statement about my health. Hasn't stopped you from making baseless assumptions.
You are starting to reach for insults now, and repeating yourself. That is a clear sign that you have nothing more to offer this discussion
You are such a tool. I have used nothing but your own ludicrous assumptions in the 7 edit mess above
It comes down to the fact that the only reason for you to have gotten the vax under your own construct is somehow you aren’t healthy. That’s your own box that you made. If you aren’t say it, but you won’t which makes me believe you don’t have health problems.
Incorrect. You characterized my health; I did not. And, we have never met.
I have declined to characterize my health, and you have stated falsehoods about it, and then accused me of doing what you do. I assume people see through your troll-like behavior. We had a good discussion going, then you ran out of gas, and to hide that, you then you started making shit up and throwing insults. Typical Frank. You are not a very nice person. Feel free to post another lie and another insult, and then we can wrap this sub-thread up.
As long as you make up the numbers, those equations work
We know a 52-yr-old, healthy HS wrestling coach in Iowa who made the same calculations. Filled in the same made-up numbers.
Did not get vaccinated.
Does last week from Covid.
Thousands like him made the same foolish calculations.
I entered both vaxxed and unvaxxed with my details here.
Without vaxx, risk of catching and dying from CoVid is 1 in 100,000; with vaxx, 1 in 200,000.
Either way, risk is pretty low.
Link: https://qcovid.org/Calculation/
Whether you want to double your risk of dying or not under that model matters nothing.
What does matter is what % of the unvaxxed are going to get sick enough to need acute hospital care at the same time as these variants surge? That is gonna be a grim picture for our HC system and economy.
I am assuming you did not take Probability and Statistics at ND.
Just because a coin can, and does sometimes, land on heads 5 times in a row, that does not mean that you should bet that it will do so.
I did, actually. And higher stats. And you are simply making up numbers…
…and then plugging them into equations and pretending it’s scientific.
It’s not. Look at your post. Look at its assumptions.
Heh. That is awesome. You didn't understand it, so it is now "not science." Pretty rich.
But, it is gratifying that we see how you define "science" now. For you, "science" seems to be something that supports your political position, and "not science" is something that you cannot use to support your political position.
People are waiting for a real vaccine
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I’m sure Joe Rogan or one of the dewormer quacks will get you one.
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Not people, technically. Subhumans.
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That is the consistent liberal viewpoint, I will give you that.
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Like the annual flu shot vaccine.
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That's a world of difference. Flu shot is real virus from eggs, mRNA med is instructions without off
button. Your unscientific thinking has no "off" button either, always remains "on".
I think folks just hear vaccine and it's easy to equate with the flu shot.
I don't think Jim is unique in that regard.
Jim is unique in many ways, mostly deplorable
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The comparison is good in one respect: Covid is more like flu than measles.
Immunization from measles protects you from measles, and when enough people vaccinate, society at large is better protected.
Not so with the flu. Flu comes back year after year and never goes away, even if everyone gets vaccinated, and the vaccinated can still catch the flu. That is why it is legitimate to ask the Left how long the mask mandates and travel restrictions, etc. will continue. If it is until covid is beaten, then they don't have a plan for stopping any of the societal restrictions, and they will have to be voted out of office to bring things back to normal.