The only exit ramp for Putin is the Russian people -- a coup or overthrow of his regime.
The world has to inflict as much daily pain and shame as possible.
If it means the West attacks the energy sector (recognizing we all pay higher prices), .... it is the least we can do to help Ukraine.
Link: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/03/opinion/russia-ukraine-war.html
Replies to: The only exit ramp for Putin is the Russian people -- a coup or overthrow of his regime.
The US is willing to fight down to the last Ukrainian
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The removal of Vladimir Putin needs to be 'Priority #1'...until it is achieved.
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Could you say something sensible, realistic? If you meant we need "regime change" approach, then I
Can tell you we have very poor records in regime-change driven foreign policy. But that is not important. What's important is there will be hundreds of thousand people, both Ukrainians and Russians to die, and $20 a gallon gas for US consumers who depend on cars for their work and living before you can have a slight chance to achieve your goal.
You voted for this so stop complaining and accept that Ukranian blood is on your hands.
You should have voted for Trump.
Foreign aid,stealing money from poor people in rich nations,giving it to rich people in poor nations
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and kicking back to enrich politician families like Hunter, Podesta brothers, Clinton foundation
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What Eli said 💯%🥇
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Then good for me. I support men of principle. I support democracy.
You support corrupt compromised and morally bankrupt folks like Trump. We get it.
Trump would have let Putin do whatever he wants. Let us remind you of what Trump did with regard to Zelensky and Ukraine:
1. Spread propaganda about Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election:
As early as 2017, Trump began voicing the conspiracy theory that Ukraine, not Russia, had interfered in the 2016 presidential election. This was one of the things Trump pressured Zelensky to “investigate” while withholding military aid.
It’s complete nonsense, and crucially, it echoed Russian propaganda that had a geopolitical purpose. Putin himself reportedly put this idea in Trump’s head. And Fiona Hill, then a top national security official, testified that this propaganda helped Russia by deflecting attention from Russia’s own interference in 2016 and by dividing the United States from an ally.
And don’t forget: At the time, some Republican lawmakers lent support to Trump’s lie about Ukraine, thus advancing “Russian interests,” as Hill put it.
2. Ousted the well-regarded U.S. ambassador to Ukraine:
Trump pushed out Marie Yovanovitch in 2019, after his lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani mounted a smear campaign against her. Yovanovitch was perceived as disloyal to Trump.
Here again the move apparently advanced Russia’s geopolitical interests at Ukraine’s expense. As the House impeachment report details, it hampered the United States’ ability to develop relations with Ukraine amid a “period of transition” — Zelensky was then a new president — and amid efforts to fend off Russian aggression.
3. Froze military assistance to Ukraine:
Well before extorting Zelensky, Trump alarmed officials by freezing military aid to Ukraine that Congress had appropriated, but without meaningful policy justification. Crucially, officials subsequently testified that granting this aid was important in dissuading Russian aggression, which would be in European and U.S. interests.
4. Withheld a White House meeting from Zelensky:
In 2019, Trump communicated in various ways to Zelensky that a much-sought-after White House meeting would be conditioned on doing his corrupt dirt-digging on Joe Biden.
Numerous high level officials later testified that this meeting was critical to Zelensky. It would grant him prestige and send an international message that the United States was siding with Ukraine against Russian aggression.
5. Turned Ukraine policy over to Giuliani:
This was one of the most shocking subplots: Trump repeatedly instructed Zelensky to contact Giuliani to discuss what Zelensky would be required to do to please Trump. Giuliani’s circumvention of national security protocols deeply alarmed officials.
That effectively handed potential influence over the future of U.S.-Ukraine relations to Trump’s personal lawyer — to the ringleader of the scheme to pressure Ukraine into helping Trump further corrupt our own elections.
All this has important forward-looking implications, now that Trump may run for president again. As president in 2025, he’d be stewarding relations with Russia, Ukraine and NATO, but after this war has unfolded.
You'd make more progress trying to explain these things to your dog.
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… or a CMU.
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"Men of principle"? Those really do not exist in Washington. Just because you vote for them
doesn't make it so. They are all self serving scumbags. You just overlook this because they belong to the party you support.
Is that man of principle Joe Biden, whose drug-addled no experience son sat on the Board of a
Ukranian gas company for millions of dollars? That one?
Please Conor, you are pathetic. Trump held Putin at bay for four years, whereas Putin invaded Ukraine twice with Biden in the WH.
Biden waives sanctions on NordStream2 (following which Putin invades), but cancels Keystone on the first day of his administration. Figure that out.
Pathetic reasoning from you. You are actually a war monger. Weakness invites war. Biden voters are responsible for all the death and destruction in Ukraine.
Never forget.
Amazingly stupid.
But everything is about domestic politics to some people. Trump good, Biden bad, arrrgh!
He is fighting a war at home too - and that is going poorly
This thread has some very interesting info - including that there have been no pro-war rallies, which is pretty amazing in a dictatorship.
I fear what happens when Putin gets desperate.
Link: https://twitter.com/samagreene/status/1499388272027570179?s=21
A desperate Putin would be dangerous indeed.
If he thinks he is going to die if he leaves office (which is probably the case now), he is capable of anything...and that is not good.
The more unhinged he becomes, the better.
Russians do not want a nuclear war.
They will eliminate Putin if he walks towards that path.
Survival is always a tipping point. The Russian people are starting to calculate the odds.
If they allow Putin to stay in power, they become de facto "accomplices" -- knowing their quality of life will suck for years to come, above and beyond being under Putin's thumb.
If they overthrow Putin, they become heroes and redefine their destiny. The West rewards them. Their quality of life vastly improves, and they are free of their master.
And how do you know who replaces Putin will not be worse? He is a madman but you have
no idea who is waiting in the weeds in that country.
If it is a coup, then we get a new autocrat (likely selected by oligarchs). Still a better option.
But, I do not believe that platform can hold.
Momentum is everything. Navalny is going to lead Russia.
This was a completely irrational gambit right from the start.
Which should make us all question his state of mind. I have no doubt that he will act like a cornered animal and do whatever he thinks is necessary to stay in power. Best case is probably that someone puts a bullet in his head and stops this insanity.
If you are Ukraine, at what point do you throw in the towel?
Do you fight until your cities are reduced to rubble? Do you pull the plug now and set up an armed guerilla war? Something else?
Not good for Putin as this is playing out, but the longer it goes, the more violent he’ll be in achieving victory.
Only Ukraine has standing to answer that question. A very difficult one.
For many able bodied men, they stand aboard the deck of the Titanic -- making sure their wives and children are safely rescued -- likely saying farewell forever to their loved ones.
A horrible predicament, but a principled choice to fight to the death.
Agreed.
Spoke with a Russian émigré today, who has relatives in both Russia and Ukraine. Said lawyers and other office professionals are making bombs in Kyiv. Of course, we know this, but it is moving to hear the stories first hand. Sounds like they are deciding to fight.
You can argue either way, but I think you have to fight to the end
They could have given in early to fight another day but At this point, I imagine Putin will want all fighting against him dead.
I have a feeling that if the government surrenders, Putin will not have any mercy on anyone.
Resistors now will be hunted down. Soldiers will be re-educated. Government types will either be re-educated or never seen again. The people will be caught in the middle. Many will suffer. Many have already suffered. It's their country. Their blood. Their freedom. It's their decision. I do not believe there is a wrong answer, especially coming from an American safe at home. I do know not one single drop of American blood should be shed. Not one serviceman or woman should be sacrificed.
Agree. There is no second act, only capitulation and death.
They had an opportunity to give up early then mount a counter at an opportune time, but that seems unlikely now.
No mercy on Ukraine's Azov Battalion. It's a shame Ukraine used neoNAZI in 2014 coup. Their war
Crime to Eastern Ukraine Russians makes them deserved to be wiped out.
NAT
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NATO is an empty shell militarily and we won't fight so sadly Ukraine must capitulate...............
The German military is a joke and the rest of NATO is worse. They have neither the will or military strength to stand up to Putin and we have said there will not be American boots on the ground.
We are living through the decline of the West and the slow removal of the United States as the hegemon of the world. Putin with the backing of China is attempting to show us as a 'Paper Tiger' and they seem to be succeeding thus far. Look for China to use this situation to take Taiwan some time before our election in November.
Ukraine is not a member of NATO.
Turmp repeatedly pushed for pulling U.S. from NATO. Start blaming the prior idjit instead of the current one.
Trump pushed to withdraw from NATO? Interesting. Got a link?
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Here's another one.
I read the first few paragraphs. When do they get to the part about Trump pushing for withdrawal?
Look...I'm not convinced the US needs to stay in NATO. So, I'm pretty ambivalent on this issue; I'm not defending Trump. I just thought the claim was not true, and asked for evidence. But, neither of you have shown that Trump was actually pushing for it. As far as I could tell, he was trying to strengthen NATO.
Here.
Putin's best shot of diminishing NATO was having Trump in the White House.
That is a fact, lost on Cole, Baron et al
Link: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html
Can't read it, but here are my thoughts: seems like a negotiation tactic.
Likely a negotiating ploy to get them to step up and do their share. Classic business negotiation tactic...until you threaten to walk, and you are called back to the table, you can't be sure you have the best deal possible. Totally in line with how he does business, and how most successful businessmen do business. Leaking it even makes the ploy more effective...unless his domestic opponents try to undermine the move by having a nuclear freakout.
But, I'm willing to talk about a withdrawal anyway. Over the course of this century, the US will become less and less capable of being a global superpower, and it is probably a good thing for Europe to defend themselves now. They can handle the Russians.
All good points which could have been made quietly within diplomatic channels
In my humble opinion the public trash talk may work fine in business but not in foreign policy. It rather emboldens our common enemies.
Well, this was Trump we are talking about. Less effective your way; more effective in public.
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Exactly. Trump's foreign policy consisted of random conflicting tweets -- like a drunk.
Not the way foreign policy is conducted. It is disrespectful to our allies.
Consent Management