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Tyrone. The WSJ article I referenced has been thoughtfully provided for you.

Author: Stark Raving Dad (5192 Posts - Joined: Aug 19, 2020)

Posted at 9:58 pm on Aug 22, 2022
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See how different arguments can be made? Stop watching MSNBC. Nothing will come of this most recent nothing burger. Again I understand why you're annoyed by this. Sucks to be wrong all the time when you do desperately want to believe.

Cheers 678. I knew Tyrone wouldn't have the courage to seek it out himself. Took the liberty of reposting the text for our good friend.

The Trump Warrant Had No Legal Basis
A former president’s rights under the Presidential Records Act trump the statutes the FBI cited to justify the Mar-a-Lago raid.
By David B. Rivkin Jr. and Lee A. Casey
Aug. 22, 2022 12:51 pm ET


Was the Federal Bureau of Investigation justified in searching Donald Trump’s residence at Mar-a-Lago? The judge who issued the warrant for Mar-a-Lago has signaled that he is likely to release a redacted version of the affidavit supporting it. But the warrant itself suggests the answer is likely no—the FBI had no legally valid cause for the raid.

The warrant authorized the FBI to seize “all physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§793, 2071, or 1519” (emphasis added). These three criminal statutes all address the possession and handling of materials that contain national-security information, public records or material relevant to an investigation or other matters properly before a federal agency or the courts.

The materials to be seized included “any government and/or Presidential Records created between January 20, 2017, and January 20, 2021”—i.e., during Mr. Trump’s term of office. Virtually all the materials at Mar-a-Lago are likely to fall within this category. Federal law gives Mr. Trump a right of access to them. His possession of them is entirely consistent with that right, and therefore lawful, regardless of the statutes the FBI cites in its warrant.

Those statutes are general in their text and application. But Mr. Trump’s documents are covered by a specific statute, the Presidential Records Act of 1978. It has long been the Supreme Court position, as stated in Morton v. Mancari (1974), that “where there is no clear intention otherwise, a specific statute will not be controlled or nullified by a general one, regardless of the priority of enactment.” The former president’s rights under the PRA trump any application of the laws the FBI warrant cites.

The PRA dramatically changed the rules regarding ownership and treatment of presidential documents. Presidents from George Washington through Jimmy Carter treated their White House papers as their personal property, and neither Congress nor the courts disputed that. In Nixon v. U.S. (1992), the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia held that Richard Nixon had a right to compensation for his presidential papers, which the government had retained under the Presidential Recordings and Materials Preservation Act of 1974 (which applied only to him). “Custom and usage evidences the kind of mutually explicit understandings that are encompassed within the constitutional notion of ‘property’ protected by the Fifth Amendment,” the judges declared.

The PRA became effective in 1981, at the start of Ronald Reagan’s presidency. It established a unique statutory scheme, balancing the needs of the government, former presidents and history. The law declares presidential records to be public property and provides that “the Archivist of the United States shall assume responsibility for the custody, control, and preservation of, and access to, the Presidential records.”

The PRA lays out detailed requirements for how the archivist is to administer the records, handle privilege claims, make the records public, and impose restrictions on access. Notably, it doesn’t address the process by which a former president’s records are physically to be turned over to the archivist, or set any deadline, leaving this matter to be negotiated between the archivist and the former president.

The PRA explicitly guarantees a former president continuing access to his papers. Those papers must ultimately be made public, but in the meantime—unlike with all other government documents, which are available 24/7 to currently serving executive-branch officials—the PRA establishes restrictions on access to a former president’s records, including a five-year restriction on access applicable to everyone (including the sitting president, absent a showing of need), which can be extended until the records have been properly reviewed and processed. Before leaving office, a president can restrict access to certain materials for up to 12 years.

The only exceptions are for National Archives personnel working on the materials, judicial process, the incumbent president and Congress (in cases of established need) and the former president himself. PRA section 2205(3) specifically commands that “the Presidential records of a former President shall be available to such former President or the former President’s designated representative,” regardless of any of these restrictions.

Nothing in the PRA suggests that the former president’s physical custody of his records can be considered unlawful under the statutes on which the Mar-a-Lago warrant is based. Yet the statute’s text makes clear that Congress considered how certain criminal-law provisions would interact with the PRA: It provides that the archivist is not to make materials available to the former president’s designated representative “if that individual has been convicted of a crime relating to the review, retention, removal, or destruction of records of the Archives.”

Nothing is said about the former president himself, but applying these general criminal statutes to him based on his mere possession of records would vitiate the entire carefully balanced PRA statutory scheme. Thus if the Justice Department’s sole complaint is that Mr. Trump had in his possession presidential records he took with him from the White House, he should be in the clear, even if some of those records are classified.

In making a former president’s records available to him, the PRA doesn’t distinguish between materials that are and aren’t classified. That was a deliberate choice by Congress, as the existence of highly classified materials at the White House was a given long before 1978, and the statute specifically contemplates that classified materials will be present—making this a basis on which a president can impose a 12-year moratorium on public access.

The government obviously has an important interest in how classified materials are kept, whether or not they are presidential records. In this case, it appears that the FBI was initially satisfied with the installation of an additional lock on the relevant Mar-a-Lago storage room. If that was insufficient, and Mr. Trump refused to cooperate, the bureau could and should have sought a less intrusive judicial remedy than a search warrant—a restraining order allowing the materials to be moved to a location with the proper storage facilities, but also ensuring Mr. Trump continuing access. Surely that’s what the government would have done if any other former president were involved.

Messrs. Rivkin and Casey practice appellate and constitutional law in Washington. They served at the Justice Department and the White House Counsel’s Office in the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations.


This message has been edited 2 time(s).

"It’s always a wonder how you all are experts in everything." jimbasil 6/26/2022

Replies to: Tyrone. The WSJ article I referenced has been thoughtfully provided for you.


Thread Level: 2

Much appreciated...I noticed that the article did not contain this very relevant PRA Provision...

Author: TyroneIrish (20579 Posts - Joined: Oct 8, 2020)

Posted at 11:01 pm on Aug 22, 2022
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> "Establishes that Presidential records AUTOMATICALLY TRANSFER INTO THE LEGAL CUSTODY OF THE ARCHIVIST AS SOON AS THE PRESIDENT LEAVES OFFICE.[5] (emphasis mine)
----------------------------
So, my take is that Trump has been in violation of the PRA since Jan. 20, 2021...and the fact that he has refused to return documents, including those classified as tour most Top Secret, tells me that the NARA was justified in requesting the assistance of the DOJ/FBI in retrieving them.

The PRA is clear in requiring any President to turn over all applicable documents (you'd have to agree that Top Secret/SCI docs fit that description) to the NARA IMMEDIATELY upon leaving office. As an American, you should be incensed that Trump has held onto such material for well over a year and rebuffed multiple requests for their return...

BTW, note the NYT article mentioned earlier that Trump, himself, went through all those boxes and KNEW what was in them and why they were so important...let that sink in.

It's a mystery to me why you're not angry with Trump for his behavior...have you got a good explanation for that?


Thread Level: 3

Sure he does = HRC (nuff said).

Author: jimbasil (52685 Posts - Joined: Nov 15, 2007)

Posted at 7:19 am on Aug 23, 2022
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(no message)

Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk
Thread Level: 3

Why do you assume I'm not? Despite that, it's much more enjoyable to watch your Matlock routine.

Author: Stark Raving Dad (5192 Posts - Joined: Aug 19, 2020)

Posted at 11:16 pm on Aug 22, 2022
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Your unfathomable arrogance just makes it so delicious. From green energy, to law and politics, medicine, to your false religion...you're just get so much wrong but insist it's everyone else who "...just need to read THIS article...then you'll understand why I'm correct and you're an unwashed heathen!"

It's fun to watch.


"It’s always a wonder how you all are experts in everything." jimbasil 6/26/2022
Thread Level: 4

Wait a minute...what happened to the WSJ Article discussion?? ;-)...lose your train of thought?..

Author: TyroneIrish (20579 Posts - Joined: Oct 8, 2020)

Posted at 11:26 pm on Aug 22, 2022
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hang in there...what's your response to what I posted...do you acknowledge that Trump violated the PRA right from the "Jump", and has no justification for holding ANY of those documents?

Thread Level: 5

The article addressed this. What are you blathering about?

Author: Stark Raving Dad (5192 Posts - Joined: Aug 19, 2020)

Posted at 11:49 pm on Aug 22, 2022
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Still cannot admit you're wrong. Funny.

"The PRA lays out detailed requirements for how the archivist is to administer the records, handle privilege claims, make the records public, and impose restrictions on access. Notably, it doesn’t address the process by which a former president’s records are physically to be turned over to the archivist, or set any deadline, leaving this matter to be negotiated between the archivist and the former president."


This message has been edited 1 time(s).

"It’s always a wonder how you all are experts in everything." jimbasil 6/26/2022
Thread Level: 6

Here's the PRA text...I couldn't find a section devoted to "Negotiation" of a turnover date...all

Author: TyroneIrish (20579 Posts - Joined: Oct 8, 2020)

Posted at 12:14 am on Aug 23, 2022
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I've seen thus far is "Immediately" upon leaving office the NARA takes ownership...those WSJ authors omitted that provision which creates a problem, wouldn't you say?

btw, thanks for rejoining the discussion.


Thread Level: 7

Well they practice constitutional law. But to quote Chris "you know better!"

Author: Stark Raving Dad (5192 Posts - Joined: Aug 19, 2020)

Posted at 12:35 am on Aug 23, 2022
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I'm sure they intentionally are misleading folks, Ty. Good call.

~~sigh~~ just can't do it can you.


"It’s always a wonder how you all are experts in everything." jimbasil 6/26/2022
Thread Level: 8

You don't have to be a Constitutional Lawyer to read...where is the PRA "Negotiation" section for

Author: TyroneIrish (20579 Posts - Joined: Oct 8, 2020)

Posted at 12:41 am on Aug 23, 2022
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determining when all documents need to become the property of NARA?

Thread Level: 9

I gather you deduced that from the annotated codes and you Sherardized the cases, right?

Author: JarHead4ND (4265 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 3:31 am on Aug 23, 2022
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(no message)

No more calls to Holly for kitchen clean-up. RIP old faithful companion.
Thread Level: 10

So, JH...have you found the "Negotiation" section of the PRA?...or some other provision that allows

Author: TyroneIrish (20579 Posts - Joined: Oct 8, 2020)

Posted at 10:33 am on Aug 23, 2022
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DJT to maintain possession of Presidential documents beyond the date he leaves office?

Thread Level: 11

Not looking, pointing out lawyers argue issues and find cases supportive of their position. I'm

Author: JarHead4ND (4265 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 12:34 am on Aug 24, 2022
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sure there is case law supporting differing interpretations of the PRA including its subsections.

No more calls to Holly for kitchen clean-up. RIP old faithful companion.
Thread Level: 3

According to the WSJ article,

Author: MarkHarman (7286 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 11:09 pm on Aug 22, 2022
View Single

"His possession of them is entirely consistent with that right, and therefore lawful, regardless of the statutes the FBI cites in its warrant."

Thread Level: 4

Mark...did you read the PRA Provision I posted?...Trump's Presidency ended on Jan. 20, 202; he had

Author: TyroneIrish (20579 Posts - Joined: Oct 8, 2020)

Posted at 11:32 pm on Aug 22, 2022
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no right to possess any documents...especially TS/SCI docs...after that date...he's been officially in violation since then.

What the WSJ article authors are talking about is Trump's ability to access documents that remain in the POSSESSION of NARA...i.e. he can ask to see them if he'd like, but not take possession of them.


Thread Level: 5

Again..

Author: Stark Raving Dad (5192 Posts - Joined: Aug 19, 2020)

Posted at 11:51 pm on Aug 22, 2022
View Single

The PRA lays out detailed requirements for how the archivist is to administer the records, handle privilege claims, make the records public, and impose restrictions on access. Notably, it doesn’t address the process by which a former president’s records are physically to be turned over to the archivist, or set any deadline, leaving this matter to be negotiated between the archivist and the former president.

"It’s always a wonder how you all are experts in everything." jimbasil 6/26/2022
Thread Level: 6

I've provided you with the PRA text...where is the 'negotiation' section for when the records (docs)

Author: TyroneIrish (20579 Posts - Joined: Oct 8, 2020)

Posted at 12:37 am on Aug 23, 2022
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are to be turned over...much less a 'process' for the transfer?...the law is clear...UPON LEAVING OFFICE...ALL of Trump's records are to be in the possession of NARA...

Note: all previous Presidents have complied...DJT's ineptitude is no excuse.

Can't blame the apologist authors for trying to muddy the waters...we've seen worse claims (e.g. "They're MINE!" ;-)).


Link: https://www.npr.org/2022/08/13/1117297065/trump-documents-history-national-archives-law-watergate

Thread Level: 7

Ty, as board information source, look into the circumstances of Clinton's losing the nuclear codes

Author: JarHead4ND (4265 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 3:22 am on Aug 23, 2022
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and holding off the pentagon officials for several months with excuses for his not admitting that he had lost the codes.

As you might expect, the United States was in great peril during the time the codes were missing.

Yes, new codes eventually were constructed.

Have you ever thought about Sandy Berger taking records from the national archives?

Do you think that Berger did that of his own volition?


No more calls to Holly for kitchen clean-up. RIP old faithful companion.
Thread Level: 8

Both "Whatabouts" have been fully resolved...Hillary's three confidential emails were judged to be

Author: TyroneIrish (20579 Posts - Joined: Oct 8, 2020)

Posted at 10:44 am on Aug 23, 2022
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inconsequential by FBI Director Comey and no criminal referral necessary...and Sandy Berger pleaded guilty with a minimal sentence...let's see where DJT's obvious transgression ends up.

I hope you're not equating those cases with the magnitude of Trump's...further to that point, given the Top Secret/SCI classification of several documents in his possession, as someone who risked his life in defense of this country from foreign aggression, why are you not outraged by Trump's behavior...you should know what would happen to you in a heartbeat if you had done what he's done...does this episode in his sorry life not make you in the least bit concerned for what may have been done with those documents?


Thread Level: 9

Oops, you missed the issue of Clinton losing the nuclear codes. I'll be fully concerned when I have

Author: JarHead4ND (4265 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 1:10 am on Aug 24, 2022
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all of the facts and I have all of the facts about Clinton losing the nuclear codes. So I believe the United States was in a position inarguably wherein it could not mount a retaliatory attack against Russia nor a first strike had that been necessary.

So correctly, I cannot conceive of equating President Trump's situation with President Clinton's situation, Clinton put us in a position of life or death with the nation's survival.at stake.


No more calls to Holly for kitchen clean-up. RIP old faithful companion.
Thread Level: 4

The entire article spells out quite clearly why he's incorrect.

Author: Stark Raving Dad (5192 Posts - Joined: Aug 19, 2020)

Posted at 11:11 pm on Aug 22, 2022
View Single

But whatever.

"It’s always a wonder how you all are experts in everything." jimbasil 6/26/2022
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