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I'm not sure I understand why the US needs to be in Afghanistan and be its police dept.

Author: jimbasil (40990 Posts - Joined: Nov 15, 2007)

Posted at 10:22 am on Mar 19, 2009
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Though I believe it to have been the right choice eight years ago, I don't see that as a choice today.
I thought we were there to capture or kill Bin Laden and wipe out the terrorists camps. Why is it we need to find a way out or a way to stay? Go get Bin Laden (something Bush couldn't do) and get out. Adding more troops to help a people who'd rather mine the poppy industry and not stand up for anything other in their lives is just a waste of American lives, wealth and time. If we have no intention of hunting Bin Laden directly then get out. If the Taliban wants the deserts of Afghanistan and its citizens don't Stand up and fight on their own for their own and they would rather be ruled by thugs and live that life, so be it.

I say get out as opposed to adding more troops. This is not a war, it is just a situation that's a mess. Nothing positive will ever come of that area any time soon and will only happen by the will of its own people.


Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk

Replies to: I'm not sure I understand why the US needs to be in Afghanistan and be its police dept.


Thread Level: 2

The US has one interest in Afghanistan: Killing the Al Qaeda leadership

Author: Chris94 (27088 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 1:17 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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That's it. Not crafting a stable Afghanistan, not providing security for Karzai, not keeping the Taliban at bay.

Just Bin Laden and the boyz (which, by recent estimates, number no more than 200 - and probably more like 140). That's it.

Kill them and get out. Easier said than done, obviously, but we ought to avoid getting sucked into nation-building in Afghanistan. That's mission creep at its worst.


Thread Level: 2

I am amazed that something like this has not been posted earlier.

Author: Tom Hynes (3629 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 1:11 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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Jim:

It is my belief that Afghanistan is a country in name only. It was given that name when the English abandoned it many years ago. It is made up of a group of tribes most of which don't get along. It's only cash crop is opium. We haven't found Bin Laden and probably won't with conventional troops. The Russians were beaten back by the Afghan rebels. Finally, it is a shit box places of no value whatsoever.

The problem is how do we get the hell out of there. It is kind of like jumping on the back of a Tiger, easy to get on, not so easy to get off.

Here is my proposal. Announce to all parties we are leaving. Tell them we have a satellite hovering above which will be watching them at all times. We will also be flying drones on a regular basis. If we see something which would indicate activities harmful to the United States we will blow it up followed by an insertion of American troops to sweep through the area to kill anyone we didn't blow up. Then we should pull out our troops and move on.

Tom


Tom Hynes
Thread Level: 2

This is sarcasm, yes?

Author: Domer From Hell (11565 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 12:56 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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(no message)

We're all born bald baby!
Thread Level: 3

If we stay, what is the end game?

Author: Tom Hynes (3629 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 1:17 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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(no message)

Tom Hynes
Thread Level: 4

That's for Barry to figure out....

Author: Domer From Hell (11565 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 1:26 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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My opinion is as soon as the Afghan military is ready to take over, let them. I'm also interested to see if the diplomatic efforts work with the tribal chiefs.

We're all born bald baby!
Thread Level: 5

WRONG!! The correct answer is, "there is no end game".

Author: Tom Hynes (3629 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 1:51 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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Domer:

The problem with fighting an insurgency is that there is no way out. Whether we leave tomorrow or ten years from now the results will be the same. Afghanistan will be nothing more than a bunch of warring tribes with the Taliban ruling the populated areas.

Tom


Tom Hynes
Thread Level: 6

I agree that there is no end to the insurgency...

Author: ODUIRISH (433 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 1:59 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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But I disagree that their is no end game. The end game is, and should always be to bring Bin Laden to justice. He is mentioned in almost every DC discussion regarding Afghanistan. Once we have him (or kill him), I say hand it over.

Thread Level: 7

Is Bin Laden still alive?

Author: (unknown user)(User Info Not Available)

Posted at 2:17 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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I find it hard to believe that we couldn't get the G-2 from the Paks on his whereabouts and take out him out by now.

He's been dead for years, if ya' ask me. These tapes that keep getting released are from the same guy that made them years ago.


Thread Level: 7

We're not going to find him with conventional troops.

Author: Tom Hynes (3629 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 2:06 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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ODUIRISH:

We now have him bottled up and he is probably totally ineffective. A strategy might be to withdraw the conventional troops and see if he comes out of hiding. If he does we might be able destroy him.

Tom


Tom Hynes
Thread Level: 8

That's when it's time to bring back Hynes for the Special Op.

Author: TakethetrainKnute (22626 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 2:55 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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(no message)

http://lh6.google.com/proud.pinoy/R59glLEG2fI/AAAAAAAACYc/Y-_Nbr0eWU4/s288/Old-Rambo--36603.jpg

Thread Level: 9

Once a grunt always a grunt.

Author: Tom Hynes (3629 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 3:57 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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Knute:

The Special Ops guys are a bunch of sissies. Real men go out an face their enemy, not hide in the bushes.

Tom


Tom Hynes
Thread Level: 10

It's called being smart Tom....

Author: Domer From Hell (11565 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 4:33 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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Spec Ops guys are reformed grunts.

We're all born bald baby!
Thread Level: 2

Re: I'm not sure I understand why the US needs to be in Afghanistan and be its police dept.

Author: dirtdickens (1406 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 11:44 am on Mar 19, 2009
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"If the Taliban wants the deserts of Afghanistan and its citizens don't Stand up and fight on their own for their own and they would rather be ruled by thugs and live that life, so be it."

This is the same attitude that got us to 9/11. They wont stop at just having a desert and they will have a base camp to start all their shit again, and thats not even talking about the mountains. I'm not sure what has been in the news, but Afcrapistan is still a huge priority even to our current administration. I've "heard" that a surge early in 2010 is all but certain and that we arent leaving until we finish. Engineers is place of regular infantry and the use of certain weapons will all be authorized.


Thread Level: 2

Your buddy has been advocating an Afghan war for 2 years...

Author: Killshot (13040 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 11:29 am on Mar 19, 2009
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...so ask Himself about it. I think there are some military strategists who feel it is sort of an all or nothing deal. The population-centric strategy in Iraq was the key (vs the original "enemy-centric" war), and pop-centric wars require a whole lot more troop investment than just killing the enemy. I agree with you that whether this works in Afghanistan or not is a real different question than Iraq owing to the uniqueness of how the population is distributed there -- few cities and pop centers, impossible terrain, and very season-related obstacles much worse than in Iraq. So, JimBob, you raise a compelling question. My kid says that the mountain war is a whole different animal and cannot understand why the fuck we need to be there. There ain't any oil to use for terrorist capital, and we can burn the poppy fields anytime we wish. Hmmmm.

Thread Level: 3

Your kid is right.

Author: Tom Hynes (3629 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 1:16 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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(no message)

Tom Hynes
Thread Level: 2

Very thoughtful analysis...

Author: Frank L (45905 Posts - Joined: Sep 20, 2007)

Posted at 11:26 am on Mar 19, 2009
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and when we just get out and the Taliban comes back in and reestablishes training camps for terrorists (probably just in time for some of the "innocent" detainees from Gitmo to join them) then do we go back in or wait for another attack? Even BHO seems to recognize the importance of not failing in Afghanistan.

Thread Level: 3

Oh the Horror, the horror.

Author: jimbasil (40990 Posts - Joined: Nov 15, 2007)

Posted at 4:47 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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(no message)

Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk
Thread Level: 4

Quite the horribleness....

Author: Frank L (45905 Posts - Joined: Sep 20, 2007)

Posted at 6:14 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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but then again a few hijacked planes hitting skyscrapers is not such a big deal until it happens. Only then does it become failure of imagination among the enlightened.

Thread Level: 5

I just can't buy into your logic. It has a Provincial if not a Hick sentimentality to it.

Author: jimbasil (40990 Posts - Joined: Nov 15, 2007)

Posted at 7:27 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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Shooting "them" does not take away the anger only instills resolve that their ideals are right. I'm not sure what will stop their anger, but it has been proven it isn't bullets, bombs and torture.

I do agree that eight years ago the correct decision was to go into Afghanistan, but the ball was dropped shortly after with the false invasion of Iraq. Now the Afghanistan conflict has morphed into something altogether out of control and should be abandoned.

I wrote somewhere on here that Pakistan is the danger zone and we need to figure that one out and do so quickly or we'll fail on that front and it's one we can't afford to squander.


Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk
Thread Level: 6

Aw shucks really?....

Author: Frank L (45905 Posts - Joined: Sep 20, 2007)

Posted at 7:56 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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Sorry about that. I generally agree with Tom Hynes about insurgencies and think it was a major fuck up by Bush to have gone into Iraq. Afcrapistan is a much different story. What was going on there pre 9/11 was a major threat to our security and we can't let that happen again. We can't exactly just invade Pakistan and we can't let the Taliban and terrorists re-establish what they had going in the late 90's and early 2000's there. While it's far from perfect there now, it's still much better than then. It also gives us a base to strike against the tribal regions when we need to do so with special forces. We need boots on the ground for the foreseeable future there even if we probably will never "win" in the traditional sense. Gotta admit I think Barry is reading this one correctly.

This message has been edited 2 time(s).

Thread Level: 7

Totally disagree.

Author: jimbasil (40990 Posts - Joined: Nov 15, 2007)

Posted at 8:28 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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What will happen now that they are unsettling Pakistan, India, Kashmir, Nepal.... is going to reek havoc upon the US and Globe.

Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk
Thread Level: 8

Big surprise...

Author: Frank L (45905 Posts - Joined: Sep 20, 2007)

Posted at 8:58 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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Okay not to belabor this thread, but what would you actually do in concrete terms to lessen the threat in the region? Not just bullshit or platitudes but real specifics.

Thread Level: 9

No BS and No Platitudes; just get out of Afghanistan

Author: jimbasil (40990 Posts - Joined: Nov 15, 2007)

Posted at 10:51 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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let them suffer their own fate and not drag us down with them. The Taliban will never be able to take over two countries, and they'll have to choose which is easier or better for them, Pakistan or Afghanistan. With them out of Afghanistan they will continue to pollute the illiterate and destabilize more than one country. The longer we wait the more they will infiltrate the minds of this backward land.

Sure this makes it sound easy and in no way is it an easy problem to solve but "boots on the ground" has proven to be not the solution. Nor does it recognize who they are fighting. The Russian invasion should tell us something. They don't want to be dominated. We had a chance to make a difference in the 80's. We chose to leave them to themselves. Too late now to alter their destiny, it's up to them.

Yes, find Bin Laden and drop a bomb on him and his acolytes if you can Since Bush blew that one during his reign, but don't make it a priority till it is clear the intentions of the Taliban and the direction they will choose. That would give an indication to where Bin Laden and his gang are including the master minds of the Taliban. Take them out but stop with the country building. My wallet is empty.

I'll bet the Taliban and Bin Laden are seeking Nukes. We need to find him soon and the only way to do that is to see what it is they are doing. We're bogged down in a dumbass squabble in the high hills of Peshawaristan while AQ is planning their next attack.


Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk
Thread Level: 2

Mr sunshine, still bashing Bush I see.... ;-) Didn't BO say that Afghanistan is where the really

Author: ucandoit (2647 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 11:16 am on Mar 19, 2009
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fight should be going on?

Thread Level: 3

Re: Mr sunshine, still bashing Bush I see.... ;-) Didn't BO say that Afghanistan is where the really

Author: jimbasil (40990 Posts - Joined: Nov 15, 2007)

Posted at 1:58 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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Did Bush continue the search for Bin Laden? No! So how is that bashing.

Who I'm bashing here are those who see this a battle to win or lose, whether it be Obama or other. It isn't a war of winning. It's a fight with no definition and no obvious end the way it is today.


This message has been edited 1 time(s).

Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk
Thread Level: 2

Take a look at the region on a map and think about what happens if Afghanistan falls

Author: NDFaninNJ (10056 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 10:31 am on Mar 19, 2009
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That place is the gateway from the Middle East to Pakistan and India. It borders some of the most volatile states in the world, as well as China. Having a stable Afghanistan, which we had a huge part in destabilizing, if a critical job.

As for Bin Laden, that hunt continues but it's not as simple as just going to pick him up. He's hiding in a small pack in caves in an expansive desert, probably in Pakistan where we're not technically allowed to even look for him.

But congrats on getting in another Bush shot. Get over it, your guy's in charge now.


I'm only here because my firewall blocks Valhamma.
Thread Level: 3

Pakistan not Afghanistan is the fight worth fighting.

Author: jimbasil (40990 Posts - Joined: Nov 15, 2007)

Posted at 5:02 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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Through this upheaval Pakistan has become enormously unstable (Taliban rule in the North East). We in our laziness (Bush going into Iraq leaving behind the original fight against AQ and the Taliban) caused the Taliban to metastasize and set up shop in North East Pakistan Peshawar and the capital of Pakistan ... [Islam]abad) and now that country is on the brink of major problems. Problems that are and will continue to destabilize India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir, Tibet and Nepal.

We can't assist Pakistan by being in Afghanistan if we have shut off the way back into the Taliban's home country; of course their going to disrupt all the other countries. Get out of Afghanistan and let the Taliban go home and seal off the boarder when they have gone home. Do it soon before it's too late and they cannot return. Then hunt Bin Laden. Though I think the ship has already sailed, we still need to leave Afghanistan faster than ASAP.


This message has been edited 2 time(s).

Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk
Thread Level: 3

But, if it were so important, the Chinese would give a shit...

Author: Killshot (13040 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 11:30 am on Mar 19, 2009
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...and they don't. They have used Tibet as an example of zero tolerance for hajis. Let the Indians and Pakistanis manage it themselves.

This message has been edited 1 time(s).

Thread Level: 4

We agree on this one, Kill

Author: Chris94 (27088 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 1:19 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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That's 2 or 3 times in the last five years. Something to build on, no?

Thread Level: 5

Next time, we'll make it over a black and tan, mate.

Author: Killshot (13040 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 2:39 pm on Mar 19, 2009
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(no message)

Thread Level: 3

Bingo

Author: dirtdickens (1406 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 11:25 am on Mar 19, 2009
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(no message)

Thread Level: 2

Israel wants us to surround Iran...so we're just following orders, really.

Author: (unknown user)(User Info Not Available)

Posted at 10:28 am on Mar 19, 2009
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(no message)

Thread Level: 3

Based on recent events, I don't think the Likud is giving the orders anymore.

Author: Killshot (13040 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 11:31 am on Mar 19, 2009
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(no message)

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