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...who's counting?

They say he picked up a $1500 pizza tab at a mini-reunion in Greenfield after his Super Bowl win, so at least he doesn't sit on his wallet like most of these guys do.

Just f*cking with you BB

He went to your HS and spent $1500 for your town on pizzas! This is what we've been missing...

I once saw Lou Holtz stab a waitress at Rocco's with a fork because she reached for loose change on Lou's table, thinking it was her tip.

Plus, McCarthy has won a Super Bowl, so he is not without qualifications as a coach.

pressure and likely could handle what coaching at ND brings. Hey, if he's interested, give him a chance.

I think I remember you stating you're a Packer fan - I am one as well and follow one of their boards. Did you see the remarks he made on Monday, saying "I am a very successful NFL coach"? MM is starting to become delusional and has many similarities to Kelly: stubborn loyalty to subpar assistants, too stubborn to change strategy because "we do what we do", and an inability to make in-game adjustments. He is on the hot seat right now in GB as the Pack is 9-13 in last 22 games. He may very well be available.

my opinion?

Those always turn out well: Bill Walsh, Bill Callahan, Mike Sherman, Chan Gailey, Al Groh, Forrest Gregg, Lane Kiffin, the list goes on...if there is one consistently terrible idea that always comes up when ND has run through another coach, it's the "Hey, let's hire an NFL coach!" suggestion that arises.

Bill Walsh - First of all started as a college coach, had first HC job in college, and did great at Stanford, before jumping to NFL. There he, well if you don't know what he did there, no point telling you. Then after getting burned out during a long and successful stay in the NFL, he took 4-5 years off and then returned to revive a dismal Stanford and had 1 great year and 2 bad years before retiring from coaching. This had to do with his age and being burned out, not NFL vs college experience and he still had 3 good seasons vs 2 bad seasons (the opposite pattern of our current coach, who you defend) and is remembered as one of Stanford's more successful coaches...oh, and he was 3-0 in bowl games. Man what a terrible, terrible example this is.

Bill Callahan - He took over a loaded team from Gruden and maintained it for one year before turning it into a complete dumpster fire and being fired the following year. Just a poor NFL HC hire, who still did better in college than he did in NFL. 27-22 in college vs 15-17 in NFL. Weak, next.

Mike Sherman - He started as a college coach, but did get his first HC job in NFL and promptly flunked his way all the way out going from NFL HC, to NFL assist HC, to NFL coordinator, to college HC, to high school HC (in that order). This is the closest thing you have to a good example and the guy is a total anomaly starting at the very top and flunking his way all the way down to the lowest level. This has little to do with NFL Vs college experience and more to do with him just being a poor HC. Close, but still fairly weak example.

Chan Gailey - This one is just laughable at best. He had TWO (2) COLLEGE Head Coaching stops and one arena league HC stop before his first NFL HC job in which he lasted 2 years before being fired. (((AND))) he was significantly better in college than in the NFL. 68-43 in college Vs 34-46 in NFL. Complete joke of an example!

Al Groh - This guy coached in college from '68 to '86 AND had his first HC stop in college before moving to NFL as an assistant, where he ended up having ONE season as a HC before being let go and moving back to college. Weak, just plain weak and inaccurate example..

Lane 'F'ing' Kiffin - Are you kidding me? He lasted 1 season and 4 games in his only NFL HC stop, going 4-12 and 1-3 respectively. He then went to college where he didn't meet high expectations, but did way, WAY better than he did in NFL. 35-21 in college Vs 5-15 in NFL. Really reaching here..

Forrest Gregg - This one is absolutely hilarious!! Resorting to using the guy who went to SMU directly after it received the "death penalty" from the NCAA for his only 2 college HC seasons. Yeah, your list of examples must truly be never ending if this is the level you are going to.

You continue to display that you lack the requisite football IQ to discuss basic football matters.

Wow... That was a slam dunk if I ever saw one.... Lol...

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I have two thumbs.

See if you can come up with more.

I'm curious in real data, which I don't believe exists. Because NFL head coaches aren't leaving for college jobs. My guess is there are a lot of NFL coaches that would have success. There would be a lot that fail. Which is exactly what happens with college to college coaching hires.

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The folks in the business know they are two completely different business requiring distinct and unique skills sets at each level.

I think the primary reason is that 1) NFL is considered the top of the mountain and the majority of people with the pride of a HC don't 'want' to go back down (or regress) in their career path, if they have another choice. 2) The money an NFL coach gets is more than what the majority of college positions pay

Just to be clear, I'm not fighting for us to pluck someone from the NFL. If the choice is a HC with a shit ton of college experience (and success) Vs a HC with all NFL experience, I'd want the college guy. But I think the perfect or PRIME candidate would be someone with HC experience at both levels.

But if our choice ends up being someone with no HC experience (or poor HC experience at college level) Vs someone who only has NFL HC experience, but was even marginally successful in the NFL, then we'd be foolish to not take the NFL guy.

There are more cases of guys being average or slightly above average in the NFL then being rock stars in college, then there are of these same types bombing in college.

My choice 1 would be a guy with ample coordinator experience, who had some college HC experience, tried out the NFL and was decent but either didn't like it there or wasn't quite good enough to last and came back to college and is have solid consistent success.

Choice 2 would be guy who has only college HC experience and has shown solid consistent success.

Choice 3 would be a guy with only NFL HC experience and at a minimum above average success.

But absolutely, by no means, no more never been a HC guys...that's been 2 of our last 4 which has been our main problem.

But ND would have to be dismally desperate and be taking a huge risk to hire a NFL only coach. The times that has worked the most recent examples of programs that did it were in exactly that situation -- USC, UCLA, and Illinois. Even PSU had nothing to lose in going for O'Brien but then he really doesn't fit that bill since he has extension experience in college.

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should be our #1 preference.

But if we can't get that, we'd be foolish to turn away a "successful" NFL HC who wanted the job. I don't think that is very realistic though.

I don't think it's a myth. I haven't studied it and haven't compiled any stats, so I'm not trying to argue or flame as I'm going on empirical evidence. Can you name more than a few coaches that have been primarily NFL coaches that have been successful going to the college ranks? Admittedly, there are fewer examples of NFL to college as there are college to pros, but off the top of my head, other than Pete Carroll, Jim Mora, perhaps Bill O'Brien, I can't think of many.

There are some successes going from college to pros. Jimmy Johnson, Harbaugh, Tom Coughlin, and going way back, Don Coryell and Paul Brown. But I would dare say that the flops have been more the norm. Devine, Holtz, Saban, Spurrier, Petrino, Chip Kelly, Butch Davis, Bud Wilkinson, Frank Kush, Dick McPherson. That's without thinking very long or researching it.

Like I wrote, I'm going off of empirical observation. If you can show that there have been more successes than failures then I'll admit it is a myth.

And there aren't enough examples of guys going from NFL to college to come up with a conclusion that there is a trend that they fail more often.

Heading up college and pro team have really diverged in the last 25-30 years so citing anyone outside of that time frame really doesn't make any sense. I would think there are really only two you can cite: Carroll and Mora(and to a certain extent the jury is still out on Mora). O'Brien really doesn't count because he actually has more college experience than he does pro experience.

That isn't to say that there is a pro guy out there who could be successful at the college level but it would have to be as rare an occurrence as has already been witnessed. Sort of like the # of successful short qbs in the NFL as in once in a blue moon.

Whenever Kelly is replaced, the guy will come from the college ranks or a guy like Harbaugh/O'Brien who has extensive and recent college experience.

The argument isn't 'HC's with NFL only experience do great when they move to the college level' so no need to cite guys who have done it.

The argument is that HC's with NFL only experience do poor when they move to the college level. That is the side who needs to cite someone, and I say it's a myth because for the most part they can't. Lane Kiffin is one they'll throw out, but truthfully he has been WAY more successful as a college HC than he was in his 20 games as an NFL HC.

So if someone is a terrible NFL coach but when they go to college they jump up to being average to slightly above average, does that support that NFL only experience HC's don't do well at college level? Or does it better support that even really shitty NFL HC's do much better at college, while good or even average NFL HC,s like Carroll, Saban, Mora do pretty darn well in college?

The deck is kinda stacked one way here. First you only get to work with NFL HC's that were never college HC's (or even spent 15-20 yrs at college level as coordinator, etc..). So now out of that limited pool, how many went down to coach at the college level? Of them, how many did worse at the college level than they did in NFL?

so it is a myth that pro head coaches won't be successful as college head coaches?

How about the folks in the business recognize the enormity of the differences in the business and few make moves and generally it is those out of career options at the pro level? And that explains Carroll, Mora and for that matter the latest to make the move, Lovie Smith who pretty much wasn't going to get another shot at a pro head coach role.

The evidence that does exist shows that it is not a myth and strongly indicates that it takes a rare individual to make it work.

Overall, about the only guy(s) (in the last 25-30 years) who have made the flip in terms of being successful at both levels is Carroll and possibly Harbaugh but his experience in coaching was mostly at the college level and he had a long career in the pros so he has ample knowledge on both sides. Find another guy like that and it can happen. And by the way, Saban and Mora could hardly be classified as even average head coaches in the pros.

I have a better chance of winning the Powerball than the next coach at ND being a truly successful NFL head coach who has no recent exposure to college coaching.

So if I flip a coin and get heads, then I have enough evidence to say heads will land a large majority of the time? Haha, no. Sample size is important. Not to mention, successful NFL coaches aren't leaving for college jobs.

You are also choosing to mention that college to college coaching changes very rarely work as well.

This is why, IMHO, an AD has to be an excellent interviewer and a great judge of talent. You can't limit the search pool.

Because of the lack of quantity is is difficult for either side to say rock solid, yes NFL HC's are usually successful jumping to college or no NFL HC's are usually unsuccessful jumping to college.
There isn't enough to be rock solid either way.

But, i believe this is completely wrong "evidence that does exist shows that it is not a myth and strongly indicates that it takes a rare individual to make it work."

Sorry, that's just wrong. Show me a list of guys who were HC's in both college and NFL. Break them down by winning % in NFL Vs winning % in college and I guarantee the vast majority will have the higher winning % in college. That does not support the myth that NFL HC's who switch to college have a low success rate. The evidence that does exist shows just the opposite.

I'd like to see the evidence to back up what you say to be true particularly as it relates to the last 25-30 years because before that just isn't applicable.

There simply aren't that many guys ( a mere handful) who have gone from NFL only coach to college to back up what you claim to be true to make it a meaningful sample.

The fact that there are so few to make the move when there are so many failures/firings at the pro level In other words( the pros create 3-4 former head coaches every year that would be ripe for the move) certainly indicates a recognition of the vast differences in the two games and it certainly isn't about money anymore.

All in all even with the silly ass speculation (granted there is little else hopeful right now) to bring up names like Mike McCarthy, Bill Cohwer, Mike Shanahan, Jon Gruden, and my favorite, Tom Couglin ( who folks have been bringing up for years because he was a coach in college 20+ years ago) etc is fantasy at it's highest level.

until you can provide some names of coaches who were HC's in NFL and college and had a worse winning % in college, there is nothing to talk about and it remains..

a myth <=== 'because' I can name numerous guys who coached at both levels and had higher winning % in college.

Seriously, I'd love to see the names you would put forward. If I am wrong, I'll admit it. I doubt you can produce relevant evidence that suggests I am.

And don't bother bringing up names from before let's say 1990 because the two games have really diverge since then. There aren't a lot of guys who have done it and it isn't because of the money (the money didn't stop Lovie Smith from moving to a truly bad program) and the reasons are pretty transparent. It is rare when it is successful.

And just so we stay on point. I am talking about head coaching guys whose primary experience is in the pros and changed to college in the last 25-30 years. Two examples are Carroll and Mora. And both weren't exactly achievers at the pro level (before their moves to college anyway) so saying their college results are better isn't proof of anything.

Just so you understand, I am not worried about hiring a guy like O'Brien who has extensive and relatively recent college experience. I think any head coach at ND has to have somewhere along the line experience as a head coach and if that experience isn't in college he should have been at least a Coordinator at the college level within the last 10 years.

Seriously, I'd love to see the names you would put forward. If I am wrong, I'll admit it. I doubt you can produce relevant evidence that suggests I am.

That's why he took a college job.

What's your point?

If anything, it supports the notion that successful pro head coaches don't make good head college coaches.

When they flopped in the pros, the move down the ladder.

And Smith would have been hired by at least half a dozen NFL teams as a DC. He didn't take the Illinois job because he couldn't find a well paying one in the pros.

You just named a few head coaches that have been primarily NFL that have been successful going to the college ranks...but can you name any who fit that mold then completely failed at the college ranks?

Yes there are plenty of coaches who struggled in the NFL, but did good at the college level...this only bolsters the belief it is a myth.

All the successful NFL head coaches you can think of who also did college, did well at it -AND- a good number of them who bombed as NFL head coaches did very well at the college level.

That is why I say "it's a myth" that, the success rate of NFL head coaches who move to college, is fairly low.

In fact it's actually the opposite, the success rate of NFL head coaches who move to college is fairly high. Not enough quantity to make it a gold standard (as in just hire an NFL head coach and you're good) but of the few who have done it the success rate IS fairly high.

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20 years as a college coach, 15 years as a college head coach before he completely flopped at GB.

Not a good example

A couple of bad decisions in the nfc championship game 2 years ago cost the Pack the game.
The Paxk players are starting to get old.
He is not he answer at ND, maybe if the caliber of players from 20 years ago were still on campus.

He's not going to give up a good job in Green Bay, especially since he's had a pretty good run there for almost a decade.

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And he is way too loyal to shitty assistants....sound familiar?

I guess it depends on how this season ends. Right now, he's a bit below the 0.500 mark, but things look like they're solidifying.

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