On one side you have the football traditionalist, hiding in the shadows mostly, that believes the lore of ND football and it's history was chiefly responsible for its current position and its cult-following in the the US, and the world. Many are overjoyed and proud of the university, as a whole and the success it has obtained and know deep in their souls they clearly understand that something as simple as a football program and the creation of subway alumni made it all possible. Otherwise, ND would be any other Catholic University in America that plays football. So they are not embarrassed to want and in some instances demand that ND keep it's football program at the highest levels. But in today's world they are being shouted down.
On the other side of bipolarism, and it looks like the one with more influence, understand the history but feel like the football program served its useful purpose and now ND can continue to build on that platform to make the University of ND to be a global brand of higher learning and global influence. This group and apparently growing in influence are indifferent to what must be done to maintain a top football program that has outlived it's usefulness in today's modern and global society. They grew up and had their children where all participants get a ribbon and no one person or institution school be held above any other. It's demeaning.
That's why there was the creation of the Shamrock Series, it's not about getting recruits, it's about taking the ND brand on the road because ND can. ND can put football butts in seats. And the game in Dublin is a PR stunt of little value to the football program. Probably upcoming games in Beijing, Jordan, and Istanbul. They don't give a damn about the players or the success of the program, or playing for a National Championship they are using it as an opportunity to take the brand on the road. What other top level football program or coaches would create a schedule that puts up obstacles to a winning season. Home games in San Diego and NY.? Give me a break! It's all to serve their egos to hob-knob with the money donors, hey guys look there's a game going on the field, right. The coaches and players didn't buy into your branding dreams?
Yeah I'm pissed, when the non-deserving take advantage of others success without acknowledgment. Don't believe me, watch the university or conference programs PR commercials during games. Like other programs, I would love to see ND on occasion focus on one of their athletes that came to ND to play a sport and get an education and make the school so much money and focus on what they do outside the program. Instead we had a segment during the Pittsburgh game on how much the school is doing to break down barriers with Muslims. Without football there would be no NBC contract and no opportunity for ND to spread their voice.
I'm pissed for the coaches and players that go out every week to bust their butts so the school can use them to profess their agenda. And for us ND football fans that truly believe, that ND can be both.
of Irish heritage and require a name change.
The two schools of thought do exist but without all the editorializing about those who hold them. Actually got to ND shortly after a clash of positions when Frank Leahy retired and "academic excellence" became the mantra of the leadership. Arrived to discover that the PE major was eliminated (not a personal issue) but discovered that in taking FR premed science I would have met all of those majors per the grad assistants as that biology class was a prerequisite for them. Have seen/heard a lot of intelligent debate between the reps of both sides over how to get a good balance for not just FB but the whole athletic program (which after FB and BB was pretty limited when I started - but that universe included NDs most successful varsity sport - fencing and the now nonexistent wrestling program.
There is another "polar" position that only got mentioned by a couple of posters below. Using revenue producing sports (still likely to be FB and BB) to fund the university. Back in the 20s ND discovered by having a good FB team playing big games on the road = big $ and profits that went and still do go into the general fund. That combined with some excellent money management of a very small endowment at the start of the Depression resulted in an expansion that included a lot of buildings. The money management "polar" folk have continued on using FB as a major source of revenue to complement fund raising and donations using the same formula for scheduling and getting its own TV network (so to speak) while keeping a national network that goes way back (I remember Joe Boland as kid).
This has played a big part in how the other polar parties have implemented decisions. In certain periods (pre Era of Ara for me as a student and pre Lou Holtz for most on the board) the $ generating game plan was disrupted by noncompetitive FB teams (not a routinely potential top 10 team) resulting in a resurgence of the t traditionalist view but just as importantly an economic decision that what needs to be done to improve FB should be done no matter despite it possibly be construed as making ND "a football factory." As noted below ND needs this money to cover the stadium complex bonds so big payday road games are going to be the norm.
Have watched over the years as these 3 perspectives have played out and think the overall pattern since the mid 50s has been to back and forth between the traditionalists with dollar folk mostly loose aligned with them and the academic excellenters who want a public image as "the Harvard of the Midwest" (a phrase from the early part of the Father Hesburgh era - not always complimentary in context BTW).
Aside: think the Kelly hire fits in as there was a collective realization that for ND to keep FB revenue up that a coach likely to wind up in the college FB Hall of Fame was the only way to go. When his era ends the cycle of "conflict" will resume as a successor is named.
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You really seem to care. About what I have no idea.
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I find it highly amusing and ironic that Kelly has been talking about the travel involved in the second half of this season and then this comes out about taking the team to freaking Europe.
It's about money and boondoggles. Playing in Yankee Stadium, Dublin, Lambeau, etc. is going to move our US News ranking. It does drive cash and gives the PTB a cool trip. Regardless of how big the endowment is, money is still money.
relatively tight lipped with his response without being outright deceptive. I think it’s the media outlets that are making this a story and it hu k they’re making more out of it than it really is.
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These self-inflicted and unnecessary road games have zero to do with football and show a lack of concern for the players and the team. You are correct - it all about building the 'brand' and making money.
Sorry, not buying the line that kids are swayed to ND because we dress up like clowns and play in a baseball stadium.
You know what helps recruiting? Winning football games and going to the playoffs. We purposely build a schedule that creates a barrier to success.
sport you love, would you sign to play with that school?
Harbaugh took his team to Europe. He plans to have a yearly spring trip abroad. I think that likely appeals to some. ND playing a game in Ireland every once in a while isn't a big deal. Lou Holtz took ND to Dublin for a game. Other teams have played games in Ireland. Penn State did a few years back. Ireland seems like a natural fit for ND. Other teams have played elsewhere overseas. Stanford played in Australia a couple of years ago. So did Cal. Teams have played in Japan. As for playing Navy in San Diego . . . who cares if ND plays them in Maryland or California? It's a road game either way.
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Would occur right now without the football program right?
And that the annual revenue from football pales in comparison to the endowment?
I see no reason both can't exist and do in fact exist. We have top ten recruiting each and every year
I am guessing you are not an alumnus. Hence your built-in predisposition to give a shit about the academic side of ND
We are taking Navy to S Diego....if you are scared of Navy in S Diego that says a lot about you
We are playing fucking Syracuse in Yankee Stadium.....likely the 2nd or 3rd largest group of ND alumni are in NY/NJ region and some great football players come out of NJ
I disagree 100% with you. But that's just me. A proud double-domer who actually gives a shit about both the football team and the academics and all the other sports as well.
Odd how the very thing so many on here make fun of (ie football factories) is just what you are preaching about
Who got a full ride at ND but couldn't attend because he had to stay home and run the family business when his brother was killed in Iwo Jima and his father died of lung cancer. He was the top running back in Ohio at Hamilton Catholic. So I have no time for your sermons about what us subway alumni know about your superiority and your huge endowments.
ND is no longer autonomous in its decision making. When you owe that much, the bond holders are in charge, no matter what horseshit the admins tell you. Double domer means nothing, your opinions are worthless. The debt is in control...
And proves my point. So the next time I see you post about the lack of a superior football team on the field I'll remind you of the school's endowments and that's is what is really more important.
Touched a nerve huh? Wow, i want to see us do well in both places and I am the asshole
Fuck you
Tell me again about your Christian values and your response to me. Your a hypocrite. Your just an entitled asshole that at one time was relevant. So sit there and be proud of yourself and your huge endowments and your circle jerk friends but it matters little to the rest of the world. I'm a fan of ND football because of football and could give two shits what you think. I stopped giving to ND and the Catholic Church years ago due to the corruption. Be proud of what you accomplished but keep your hypocrisy to yourself.
Wow. You are a very angry person. Really feel bad for you.
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Think of your shit faced state as Force, the amounts of alcohols intaked(ed) by youz as Mass, and how fast you drink it as, well, Acceleration (or speed) and yeah, you're an alcoholic... congratulations, welcome to the club!
I disagree. As a Subway Alumni, I love that ND comes and plays in Yankee Stadium (even if I hate the Yankees!) It keeps the ND brand alive beyond the football season: which for the kids and their ribbons and trophies, is important. There are kids playing football in the 5 boroughs right now that very well may not have heard of ND, and will know them because they played at Yankee Stadium (and hopefully run roughshod over Syracuse). I don't disagree with some other parts of your post -- and moreover, I'd also agree it would make sense to be more prudent about scheduling these cross-country trips more strategically in the schedule -- but playing the "road home" games in NY and CA (or CHI) makes sense for recruiting purposes, in my opinion
It certainly doesn't hurt. One of the reasons ND alternates home/road with Stanford and USC is to get on the field in California every year. I don't see how it could hurt recruiting to get games around the country. And as much as I don't like most of the Shamrock Series uniforms, I do think there is some appeal for kids. Oregon has blazed that trail. I think a once-a-year venture into alternative uniforms is fine. It isn't my cup of tea, but I'm not going to yell for them to get off my lawn either. I'd be fine with it if they dropped the Shamrock Series, but it doesn't bother me if it continues. This all seems like much ado about nothing.
The football program was built on barnstorming and what some would call "gimmicks" today. Knute played in Yankee Stadium. Football tradition and growing a "brand of higher learning" aren't exclusive propositions.
football as it once was not being as important, they are in for a rude awakening. Without football I never would have looked at the school. I could have had it much easier. Football is the great bond and without it our prestige and resources will run dry.
ND is in the Top 20 schools nationwide academically. It will continue to be so with or without football. they accept about 1 out of every 6 applicants and that will continue.
ND doesnt need football anymore. That is the only part of PB's post I agree with.
I dont believe they take games to CA/NY/CHI/TX to appease the rich graduates though; it's for recruiting first and foremost.
Kids going to ND these days arent going for the football team. I am guessing you started at ND close to 50 years ago. It's a totally different game there now.
What part do you disagree with? I am sorry what happened to your Dad and other members of your family.
But otherwise I could give a shit what you think.
It is an awesome school and I love it for more than just the fucking football team and could give a shit what you think
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So if you want to win National Championships in football, or why bother, post something more intelligent instead of bragging about your education or how great the school is even though it hasn't won a Championship in 30 Fucking years!!
Maybe you should start a debate team board
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