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Why do you need HC "experience" to know Estime should have scored?

Author: MarkHarman (7241 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 11:21 am on Oct 1, 2023
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Several have commented that Freeman wanted Estime to fall down at the 1 so we could milk the clock and kick a FG, and this reflected a "lack of head coaching experience."

Really? Then how do none of you with any head coaching experience know Estime did the right thing? Isn't it just common sense?

In any event, there are times when falling down at the 1 does make sense. This wasn't one of them, but there are times.


Replies to: Why do you need HC "experience" to know Estime should have scored?


Thread Level: 2

Better question, why not pose this question down below in the thread discussing this?

Author: Chrisb (16381 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 10:16 pm on Oct 1, 2023
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But since you asked...if it's just common sense, as you say, and our head coach wants something different (in the heat of the moment) than what common sense dictates, does that mean he lacks common sense?

Or does it mean he lacks enough of these moments under his belt, to in the heat of the moment be comfortable and confident sticking with common sense decisions instead of over thinking things.

I was one talking about this, and while I didn't directly link it to his HC experience down below, there is a tie in there.

First and foremost let's address the elephant...I don't think Freeman is a stupid person who lacks common sense. But there is a HUGE difference between making cool, calm, poised, common sense decisions from the comfort of home while watching the game Vs being The Guy with the eyes of the world on you and making those decisions in real time with all of the pressure on you. This kind of pressure can either make someone great or destroy them, depending on the person.

That pressure, can make many a smart, common sense having man, make incredibly bone headed decisions, especially if they aren't ready for it yet or maybe just aren't built for it.

We saw last season that he wasn't ready for it. We'll find out over the next couple years if he's built for it.

The advantage of hiring someone with Head coaching experience is that they've already been tested and performed under this kind of pressure, which is not remotely the same as what is felt being a Coordinator. Also, you can see and assess how they performed in these moments instead of relying on instincts and guesswork about how they will respond under the pressure.

There is a reason Holtz said he needed every bit of his HC experience before he came to ND. There is a reason Marcus Freeman has said numerous times there is no substitute for experience. It's real, he knows it now, experience does matter, and someone who has been under that pressure for a number of years and had the opportunity to learn from mistakes (under a spotlight maybe not so bright), in most cases is going to be better prepared to maintain their composure and make the same kind of reasonable common sense decisions they/we would make if safe at home watching, while they are in the heat of the moment. Battle tested is what we called it in the Corps

That is how HC experience in general ties in, but the more specific issue with Coach Freeman that I pointed to below, is that I think he doesn't have the offensive situational awareness that comes from 1) being an offensive minded person 2) from having some experience as being in the role as The Offensive Guy before.

Freeman didn't walk in the door with any offensive experience so the only offensive experience he's going to get now will come through additional years of HC experience and living and learning through mistakes on the biggest stage and absorbingfrom his OC. I don't think this would be as much of a concern if he hired a quality experienced OC (like Ludwig) but instead when the Ludwig deal fell out, he didn't go down the list and get someone in between but went all the way down to hiring a guy from within, with not much OC experience.

So now we have a HC (with no offensive experience) learning on the job paired with an OC who is basically learning on the job himself.

This how you get situations like when tosu used their 2nd timeout with 2:28 remaining and we don't just run three times to definitely pull their final timeout and possibly ice the game with a first down, or thinking we would have been better off downing it at the 1 instead of taking the sure TD.

To look at the opposite end of the spectrum, Saban is a defensive coach, but he's had enough experience as a HC at multiple stops to recognize when it's time to interject himself on the offensive side and has gained knowledge over the years to make good decisions there, comfortably.

Time will tell if Freeman is the man, but to keep pretending that experience has nothing to do with it is just silly, as it has already displayed in front of our eyes numerous times that it has a lot to do with it.


"Notre Dame by a million..Go Irish!" -Shane Gillis
Thread Level: 2

MF over thinking things a bit,

Author: Clem (1877 Posts - Joined: Sep 17, 2016)

Posted at 5:04 pm on Oct 1, 2023
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probably has PTSD from last weeks final minutes. Nothing a couple years of counseling and perhaps a service animal won't fix.

Thread Level: 2

Also, remember the Tennessee game in 1991...

Author: ndunabomber (6416 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 12:37 pm on Oct 1, 2023
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Jeremy Lincoln from TN, ran around Pete Rausch and Oscar McBride, and got enough of his posterior to deflect what was a surefire game winning field goal...

Even the shortest field goal aren't absolutely guaranteed.


Thread Level: 3

I hate relying on a kicker at anytime. But I was not worried when we had a 7 point lead with 51

Author: THEISMANCARR (17144 Posts - Joined: Aug 10, 2007)

Posted at 1:22 am on Oct 2, 2023
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seconds left. When we knew they would probably be starting from their own 256 after kickoff.

This message has been edited 1 time(s).

Thread Level: 2

I feel Estime did the right thing. FG kicker known to shank short ones.

Author: bobdrake (737 Posts - Joined: Sep 30, 2021)

Posted at 12:29 pm on Oct 1, 2023
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(no message)

This message has been edited 1 time(s).

Thread Level: 2

They're being silly

Author: ndunabomber (6416 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 11:41 am on Oct 1, 2023
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Estime was guaranteed to score, and there was only 30 seconds left on the clock.

Yes, I know a 18 yard field goal attempt (from the 1 yard line) is almost all but guaranteed, but in this case, almost isn't good enough. Duke's front seven was getting excellent penetration all night, and they could certainly have had a chance to block the field goal. We could have also mis-snapped, or Shrader could have shanked it.

You take the sure score, to go up by more than a field goal's score, forcing your opponents to drive 75 yards to paydirt. The defense was playing well all night, and with not having to worry about the quarterback runs (they had to pass on that last drive), a lot of Riley Leonard's effectiveness was taken away.

Someone like Sam Hartman can drive a team down the field in 30 seconds because he's primarily an accurate and precise thrower in those last second drills.

Riley Leonard has his best passing success only when he's also a threat to run, since that allows him plenty of single coverage options. He didn't have that single coverage benefit during that last drive, for the two plays that it took, and that sack was as much of a coverage sack as it was Cross and Liufau getting to him in time.


Now, maybe if Duke had someone like Rocket Ismail on their return team, maybe that's a different story, but there's only one Rocket Ismail, and nobody else is his equivalent.


Thread Level: 3

Exactly!!!

Author: THEISMANCARR (17144 Posts - Joined: Aug 10, 2007)

Posted at 1:24 am on Oct 2, 2023
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(no message)

Thread Level: 3

Exactly, always take the sure thing!

Author: jamie (1477 Posts - Original UHND Member)

Posted at 1:31 pm on Oct 1, 2023
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(no message)

Thread Level: 4

Which MF failed to do on the opening drive of OSU. Take the points. He's messing this part up.

Author: oldirish (9324 Posts - Joined: Oct 8, 2011)

Posted at 3:14 pm on Oct 1, 2023
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(no message)

Thread Level: 5

I wasn't upset with those calls, against OSU if Same plays it like he did against Duke and bowls

Author: THEISMANCARR (17144 Posts - Joined: Aug 10, 2007)

Posted at 1:28 am on Oct 2, 2023
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a tackler over when he has momentum in the direction he is going he gets the first down near the sideline. (We got hosed on that replay though but that's not the point). Even the attempt on 4th and 1 around the left tackle by Sam, I don't think he was committed enough to power. (That also was a bullshit reversal though less egregious than the one on the sideline).

Thread Level: 3

Well said. In nfl yes in college no

Author: ndphysics (3899 Posts - Joined: Sep 17, 2016)

Posted at 12:55 pm on Oct 1, 2023
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(no message)

Thread Level: 3

Good analysis.

Author: Frank L (64049 Posts - Joined: Sep 20, 2007)

Posted at 12:25 pm on Oct 1, 2023
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(no message)

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