I'll address each of your paragraphs...btw, I'm going to use references from Prof. Laurence Tribe's book "Abortion, The Clash of Absolutes" a few times...
>You must admit that an unwanted pregnancy in one state is no different that in another...yet, one state would criminalize abortion while another would allow it...to me, that's "Chaos"...here's an excerpt from Prof. Tribe's book, illustrating even more "Chaos"....
"Notwithstanding the criminalization of abortion and the wide-scale practice of illegal abortion, there were few indictments and disproportionately fewer convictions for abortion during this period. For example, in Minnesota between 1911 and 1930 there were only 100 indictments for abortion, and only 31 of these led to convictions. In Michigan between 1893 and 1932, 156 indictments for unlawful abortion were handed down, with only 40 resulting in conviction.
Most Americans were apparently content to live with this hypocrisy. The major "punishments" for abortion, punishments disproportionately borne by underprivileged women, remained the mutilations or deaths that often attended the illegal terminations of unwanted pregnancies."
btw, your continued harping on "Murder" but refusal to acknowledge "Assault" again shows your complete blindness to the plight of the women driven to the remedy of abortion...we both agree that abortion is not the preferred solution...but, the REALITY is unavoidably clear...women WILL seek dangerous illegal abortions anyway...AND, as I've shown, 80-85% of Americans will continue to agree that "Legal" abortions should be allowed...because of the understood lifetime burdens on women (e.g. in the cases I mentioned)...you need to deal with REALITY, while at the same time working to REDUCE the number of abortion decisions being made...it can be done...but not by overturning Roe v. Wade.
>Your second paragraph seems to me an acceptance of illegal abortions...again demonstrating a total lack of compassion or empathy with the woman's plight...no progress will be made until you change that rigid mindset...you are without question in the extreme minority of the American public's long-established view on this....here's another excerpt from the referenced book that hopefully illustrates this point...if not for you, then others who follow this thread...
"Some doctors, nurses, and hospital emergency workers who had seen the brutality imposed by illegal abortions sought now to liberalize abortion laws. Another profession often witness to the humiliation, pain, and death caused by criminal abortion laws was the clergy. In a world where women were afraid to admit not only to having had an abortion but, indeed, to having engaged in any sexual activity not intended to lead to pregnancy, it was often members of the clergy who saw and heard firsthand the stories of brutal back-alley abortions that many women kept secret even from their friends and families.
In May 1967 twenty-one members of the clergy made a stunning announcement, reported on page one of the New York Times, offering to refer women to doctors they knew to be performing safe and legitimate abortions. Their organization, the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion, soon spread across the country with thousands of clergy participating as "gentle lawbreakers," referring women to doctors in Puerto Rico, in Great Britain, and even within the United States. In Michigan alone, a hundred members of the clergy, including a few Catholic priests, gave such referrals."
Once again...REALITY...you need to open your eyes and ears to what is truly going on...and why women (along with concerned men) are literally screaming to be heard. Those cries will never stop, even if you see Roe v. Wade overturned...I'll say it again...you...and I...can achieve significant reductions in the number of abortions...but as long as there are Unwanted Pregnancies, they will not stop.
>You're overlooking the specter of a National Ban should the GOP regain power...but assuming sanity is maintained, there are still too many states that will impose a spectrum of draconian laws that make life unbearable for women...especially those suffering pregnancy from rape and incest...
Speaking of compromise...not all "rapes" are front page violent assaults...how would you classify the all-out demand of a husband for his "conjugal rights" when his wife can't possibly endure another pregnancy?...would that not be termed a 'rape'?...as an attorney, do you see any way that this country could develop a legal process that would be able to attain..."beyond a reasonable doubt"...what was a rape and what wasn't?...IMO we can only rely on the woman's word as to whether the unwanted pregnancy was consensual...imagine the thousands of courtroom scenes if we tried to adjudicate all such circumstances..."Chaos!" to the N-th degree.
>I've given you multiple explanations regarding the disregard for women's concerns...not the least of which is the article by the ND alum...while it is very important moving forward to "institutionalize" the programs you mention, they will not address ALL cases, for both medical and mental health reasons...but please 'hold that thought'...it is part of the solution I, and others, envision.
>I keep having to say this..."Read Renee Roden's Paper"...she eloquently explains the issue. I a much less sophisticated way, I commented that Unwanted Pregnancies would cease if men BEFORE having sex made sure that it was for either "Conception", or for the couple's mutual pleasure, using "Contraception"...something our Church has failed come to grips with...btw, I don't mind explaining that part on another thread...
Also, men are the "sine qua non" element in all of this...if they don't ensure that the sex act is entered into within the provisos noted above, then if anyone is to be indicted or convicted, the men need to be dealt with first...they had the chance to keep an "Unwanted Pregnancy" from happening...and they didn't...
Your only offerings in this vein are 'Post Delivery' of a baby....they don't deal with the avoidance of the whole affair to begin with.
>I'm fine with using "Hard" instead of "Complex", but the fact of the matter is that women will continue to opt for abortions so long as "Unwanted Pregnancies" occur, which leaves us with difficult choices on how to deal with the situation...consign women to dangerous illegal abortions, or offer a) better sexuality education throughout girls...and boys...lives, b) widespread education, promotion and availability of "Contraception", and c) ensured availability of Post-Delivery aid for women of all social and income backgrounds...such as you were mentioning.
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Once again, I sincerely appreciate you taking the significant time and effort to reply...and doing so in an honest and pretty much respectful manner...it's not easy, for either of us, but this issue affects the entire nation, so it's not a frivolous undertaking. We don't always need to go to such lengths, but it's good for me and others to hear your reasoning...hopefully, you and others will do the same for mine.
Have a good day, and I hope this is just one example of reasoned dialogue.