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You rely on outdated science to say that "faith" changes. But, doctrine didn't change, science did.

Author: NedoftheHill (44672 Posts - Joined: Jun 29, 2011)
Posted at 10:44 pm on May 5, 2022
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Doctrine: If the baby is alive, don't kill it. The fact that science has been better able to determine when it is alive hasn't changed the doctrine. I think you look to the wrong sources, so that you can weaken your faith so that you can maintain your political views. Set aside your political views for a second, and start looking at things fresh.

I actually can't relate at all to your watered down Christianity that is subordinate to your politics. Perhaps for the rest of the discussion, we should just assume that God does not exist. Even secular humanists are against killing. If there is no god, then human life is the greatest thing there is. We should preserve it at the expense of all other things.

My view is consistent with Libertarians for Life. From the Wikipedia page:
1) Human offspring are human beings, persons from fertilization.
2) Abortion is homicide – the killing of one person by another.
3) There is never a right to kill an innocent person. Prenatally, we are all innocent persons.
4) A prenatal child has the right to be in the mother's body. Parents have no right to evict their children from the crib or from the womb and let them die. Instead both parents, the father as well as the mother, owe them support and protection from harm.
5) No government, nor any individual, has a just power to legally "de-person" any one of us, born or preborn.
6) The proper purpose of the law is to side with the innocent, not against them.

None of the arguments are based upon religious belief, and are intended to appeal equally to atheists and theists.


You mention rape. First, let's deal with the majority of abortions, which are purely elective. I posted this elsewhere, but you have not answered, so I will post it here: Probably the least justification for an abortive homicide would be if 2 people decide to have consensual, conjugal sex, to completion, without protection...just because they want to do it. They intentionally engage in acts that make it possible, and maybe even probable, that they create a human being. The question then becomes: Are they allowed to kill that human being? No rape, no incest, no down syndrome kid...they just decide they regret the occurrence of them becoming pregnant. If we are looking to culpability or responsibility of the parent to justify the homicide, then that case is probably the weakest case for justification. In that case, do you, Tyrone, think that abortion should be allowed? If you do, then we don't have to discuss special cases, because you believe it should be allowed in all cases.


Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarians_for_Life

This message has been edited 2 time(s).

Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.

Replies to: "You rely on outdated science to say that "faith" changes. But, doctrine didn't change, science did."

  • "News Flash!"...Abortions did not start with Roe v. Wade... [LINK] - TyroneIrish - 12:02pm 5/5/22 (55) [View All]
    • [I can't believe I'm doing this.] No one said it did. Your title is a distraction, not a point. - NedoftheHill - 2:16pm 5/5/22
      • Ned, I'm glad you at least responded...big "Thumbs Up" from me...now let's continue the discussion.. - TyroneIrish - 4:09pm 5/5/22
        • Quick response regarding a threshhold issue. - NedoftheHill - 5:42pm 5/5/22
          • No need to clarify your term...I get what you mean...yes, an abortion stops a developing human being - TyroneIrish - 8:59pm 5/5/22
            • Ok. You agree abortion is homicide. The issue: Is it jusifiable or not? That narrows the discussion. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 10:58pm 5/5/22
            • You rely on outdated science to say that "faith" changes. But, doctrine didn't change, science did. [LINK] - NedoftheHill - 10:44pm 5/5/22
              • To your last paragraph...yes, I did introduce the "Rape Case" scenario, so let's not avoid it, since - TyroneIrish - 7:43pm 5/6/22
                • So, you support abortion in all cases. The rape/incest discussion is meaningless. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 9:42pm 5/6/22
                  • While I, like you, would like to be able to parse 'casual' from 'substantive' reasons for - TyroneIrish - 11:27pm 5/6/22
        • You lost me at “I’ll”, what a load of bullshit. [NT] - notredame678 - 4:17pm 5/5/22
          • Wow!...ten words...sure hope you take some time to recover from all that mental exertion ;-). [NT] - TyroneIrish - 4:27pm 5/5/22
            • Reading your screeds is indeed a mental challenge. [NT] - notredame678 - 5:01pm 5/5/22
      • "It is not a complicated issue." So says all zealots, pro-choice and pro-life. - Chris94 - 4:03pm 5/5/22
        • Morality is complicated - so say people who haven't invested the effort to work through the morality - NedoftheHill - 5:09pm 5/5/22
        • It’s a State issue, been saying for years. Get yourself to your fainting couch. [NT] - notredame678 - 4:12pm 5/5/22
          • You will change your tune. You all will. THE BABIES! THE BABIES!! [LINK] - Chris94 - 4:19pm 5/5/22
            • Get a grip on yourself. [NT] - notredame678 - 5:02pm 5/5/22
            • Interesting podcast - opinion is that national laws would all be DOA with this opinion [LINK] - Iggle - 4:37pm 5/5/22
              • Most laws in the past 80 years should have been dead on arrival. - NedoftheHill - 5:51pm 5/5/22
    • Yay! Another abortion thread! - Nigel Tufnel - 1:56pm 5/5/22
    • People believe that abortion is murder. - Iggle - 1:42pm 5/5/22
      • Ask yourself WHY 80-85% of the American public since 1975 (see link) has supported the legalization [LINK] [IMAGE] - TyroneIrish - 2:09pm 5/5/22
        • I also can switch that to say 70% believe abortion should be illegal in almost all cases, but stats - WestCoastIrishFan - 3:23pm 5/5/22
          • If less than 20% want abortion to be illegal in all cases, how do you make that statement... - TyroneIrish - 4:24pm 5/5/22
            • Are you being serious? Give it some thought. [NT] - WestCoastIrishFan - 6:24pm 5/5/22
              • I can't make the chart of the data any easier...sorry... [NT] - TyroneIrish - 11:54pm 5/5/22
        • So you concede his point. - NedoftheHill - 2:46pm 5/5/22
          • I get that many Pro-Lifers (but not all) stop at the word "Murder"...my contention...and that of - TyroneIrish - 4:38pm 5/5/22
            • His point remains unchallenged. You're taking us sideways now, which is fine. Just pointing that out - NedoftheHill - 4:57pm 5/5/22
              • I'll go out on a limb and say that 100% of Americans know what "Murder" is and fully support the - TyroneIrish - 11:28pm 5/5/22
                • You didn't answer the key question of my post. Respectfully, could you please try again? - NedoftheHill - 12:23am 5/6/22
                  • What part of :The reality that it is virtually impossible to discern which case is justified versus - TyroneIrish - 1:10am 5/6/22
      • Ty & Bishop McElory have a poll about that. Apparently Jesus was wrong. [NT] - Stark Raving Dad - 1:56pm 5/5/22
        • What exactly did Jesus say about abortion? [NT] - TyroneIrish - 2:09pm 5/5/22
          • You don't care what Jesus said. Your existence is to be right on a message board. - ELP - 3:55pm 5/5/22
          • What does His Church say? - NedoftheHill - 2:30pm 5/5/22
            • You are correct...Jesus said nothing about abortion...but for the Roman Catholic Church, - TyroneIrish - 5:54pm 5/5/22
              • Jesus is The Word. - Stark Raving Dad - 8:49pm 5/5/22
                • You're essentially making it up...there was no teaching on the subject...it has all developed over - TyroneIrish - 1:36am 5/6/22
                  • This is incorrect. Scripture speaks extensively about the sanctity of life. - Stark Raving Dad - 9:18am 5/6/22
              • You could ask political Larry what the Church teaches, but why not ask the Church what it teaches? - NedoftheHill - 6:29pm 5/5/22
            • Tyrone doesn't believe in Scripture. He said it's an ancient text not to be believed. [NT] - Stark Raving Dad - 2:34pm 5/5/22
              • You haven't answered the question yet, Stark...you brought it up...now back it up. [NT] - TyroneIrish - 4:40pm 5/5/22
                • I would invite you to address my question two posts up. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 4:52pm 5/5/22
                  • Oh you of little patience...see my response...all of it. [NT] - TyroneIrish - 5:57pm 5/5/22
                    • I can't get enough of you! [NT] - NedoftheHill - 6:24pm 5/5/22
    • 5 Down Votes, thus far, but not one response...each of you knows I'm right about this, but are too - TyroneIrish - 1:30pm 5/5/22
      • It might be that people don't want to read your bullshit. - NedoftheHill - 1:59pm 5/5/22
        • Truth, very tiresome [NT] - ColeyO - 3:19pm 5/5/22
        • Another example of complete disregard for women...read that article on why Pro-Life advocates [LINK] - TyroneIrish - 2:19pm 5/5/22
          • Ty, think how long you'll get to debate this in the afterlife. [NT] - WestCoastIrishFan - 3:26pm 5/5/22
            • OMG. Just realized what my personal hell will be. Stuck in a room reading Ty's links. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 3:30pm 5/5/22
          • Another example of complete disregard for babies. Read the Catechism. - NedoftheHill - 2:24pm 5/5/22
            • The Catholic Church has abdicated the preaching of abortion, homosexuality, & genderism to the NYT. - ELP - 3:58pm 5/5/22
              • Deleted. I misinterpreted your post. My bad. [NT] - NedoftheHill - 4:51pm 5/5/22
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