The Dems $3.5 trillion social plan could have been drawn up by Xi. The Socialists own the D’s.
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Level 1
Here's an overview of what's in the $3.5T bill...what items would you eliminate or amend...and why?
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Level 2
I hope that there is full on substantive debate.
“We can’t afford it” is short sighted and too dismissive.
The bill ought not be treated as an “all or nothing” proposition.
Break each proposal down, do the deep dive, and ask what is the forecasted return on investment? How big is the ripple effect? And what is the cost for taking a pass and not pulling the trigger?
I respect big and bold thinkers. FDR taught us that.
My guess is that moderate House Democrats will trim it down.
But, this bill has plenty of game changer initiatives. I encourage respectful and robust debate on the merits.
The American Dream belongs to all of us. — Kamala Harris-
Level 3
Fine. There should be. Someone has to be the adults about these things.
The govt’s own financial reports concede our fiscal policy is unsustainable.
So when are we gonna face the music on this? When it’s to late to do anything but cause real pain? We gonna keep just letting non discretionary spending get out of control like your pal Barry did when he tossed the bipartisan report on entitlements in the circular file? We just gonna keep on going big with even more discretionary spending? We gonna be like the GOP and keep giving out big tax cuts while we spend like drunks? We gonna just forgive all student debt? Free college? Free daycare?
Yeah, let’s have this debate and do it honestly for a change.
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Level 4
Appreciate the sentiments. Recently posted about paying down existing deficit.
The GOP claims to be fiscally responsible, but only makes a fuss when they are in the minority.
They never vetted their 2017 tax cuts. They asserted that corporations and the super wealthy would reinvest the untaxed capital in America, generating greater tax revenue. Last time I checked, that assumption did not pan out.
Smart investments make money. Bang for the buck should always be the focus.
But, I agree that no one in Congress is willing to take ownership of checks written by their predecessors.
The American Dream belongs to all of us. — Kamala Harris-
Level 5
I can tell that the debt is very important to you...as a political lever.
(no message)Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good. -
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Level 5
I think we owe to it to the millions of Americans who depend on these entitlements and the working
people who fund them to take that ownership. At some point the choices to both are going to be very painful in terms of benefit cuts and tax increases. It’s not right to burden our kids and grandkids that way.
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Level 4
That will never happen. Only reason conor says that is to distract from damage his party is doing.
(no message)Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.
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Level 3
Please explain how you came to the conclusion that we can't afford it...remember that this Bill's
expenditures extend over 10 years...attached is some insight into the funding of the bill...Link: https://www.rollcall.com/2021/08/05/budget-reconciliation-instructions-likely-to-assume-deficits/
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Level 4
What is our current deficit? How much of it has been added since 2000?
We can’t afford it because our debt either has or soon will exceed our GDP. Adding $3.5 trillion along with the trillions in COVID and infrastructure spending is reckless and irresponsible. (This is especially true as we have zero control over our non discretionary entitlement spending as stated below) How much of the prior debt was advertised as deficit neutral and okay cause it was spread out over time? It never is.
One last point. Until we fix entitlements, there should be a minimizing of discretionary spending, not an expansion of it.Link: If you want the answer, click here. It is reckless and unsustainable.
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Level 5
Thanks for the link...definitely a concern...however, all is not 'doom and gloom'...
>The U.S. still has an interest rate of ~1.5%, so lenders like our ability to pay...
>Much of the $3.5T bill is financed with tax increases on Corps and the Wealthiest Americans, plus significant "Offsets", so we're not putting the whole thing on the national credit card.
>Much of the Bill is devoted to increasing "Human Capital"...a very real aspect of GDP and virtually non-existent in current GOP policy...these expenditures are real investments in our human infrastructure (see link in other post on that topic).
Looking at how we got to our current level of debt, I can't help but recall that Clinton's 8 years produced a surplus...the other admins...from Reagan to Trump...didn't...and Obama saved us from turning a Great Recession into a Depression...this realization has soured me on what I now see as the myth of GOP 'fiscal responsibility'...they can and must walk the talk...we need viable opposing parties.
Glad to continue discussing this very important topic...especially with someone of substance like yourself.
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Level 6
Did Clinton do that by Executive Order or did Gingrich and the Rep’s have
anything to do with a balance budget. If your going to discuss economics try to refresh your memory. The house and senate are in charge of spending. Or have you forgotten that?-
Level 7
The attached link should give some insight as to which party had WH, House and Senate control...
>Clinton passed his "Omnibus" tax plan in his first year (1993) when the Dems had control of the House and Senate
>GW Bush passed his two tax cuts in 2001 (once Chaney was inaugurated to break the 50/50 Senate tie...and the GOP had full control)...and in 2003...again with full control.
>The GOP's 2017 tax cut was the very first thing they did while still holding full control.
If you'd like, I've got another assessment that underscores how the GOP is more responsible for deficits...I'll dig it out for you...
btw, it's not that I don't like the GOP...I've voted for Republican Presidents and I don't at all like the idea of one party running our government unchecked...but both parties have to 'walk the talk'...on the issue of fiscal responsibility...they're not even close to crawling.Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divided_government_in_the_United_States
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Level 9
Actually, I believe I did answer his question...Frank and I were discussing how we could afford the
$3.5T Bill, and I listed some measures...including tax hikes on corporations and the wealthiest of Americans...as Clinton had done in 1993, with excellent results (i.e. a budget surplus upon leaving office 8 years later), showing that such measures can work for the good of the country...
PB jumped in before we could finish our conversation, asking whether Gingrich and the GOP had anything to do with either the tax increase, or the results...my response to him showed a history of party controls for the WH, House and Senate...noting that the GOP had always...always...gone for tax cuts when they had total control of all houses, so I showed that when Clinton and the Dems had full control immediately upon taking office, they passed their tax increase...it's very hard for me to imagine that Gingrich and the GOP would have urged him to do so...although, I'm sure they argued for lower increases...so, net/net...Gingrich & Co. had nothing to do with Clinton's actions...which clearly did not hurt the country's debt level.
Thanks for allowing me to make the point again...Cheers!
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Level 7
Clinton also rode the Dot.Com bubble like it was a chubby intern...
TakethetrainKnute 35758 posts(no message)
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Level 2
All of it. The 1 trillion deal was for actual infrastructure.This is for Green Deal&socialization
BaronVonZemo 64186 postsNow the Dems have found the loophole of Reconciliation, the only hope of stopping this is Joe manchin and Sinnema. And you know what they say about relying on Democrats.-
Level 3
Re: All of it. The 1 trillion deal was for actual infrastructure.This is for Green Deal&socialization
I opened Tyrone's overview of the Infrastructure overview. the last highlight outlined the so called actual infrastructure part of the Bill and this too was full of everything but what infrastructure really means. -
Level 3
Assuming that the GOP knows better when it comes to handling money is questionable...
>Reagan's tax cuts resulted in him leaving office with a deficit...and G.H.W. Bush had to raise them
>Clinton raised taxes and left with a surplus
>GW Bush left with a Great Recession in progress...thanks in large part to a 'laissez faire' attitude toward instruments like 'Credit Default Swaps'
>Obama recovered from the Great Recession and introduced the ever more popular ACA Bill that's turning out to be a good investment.
>GOP used Trump to cut national income from corporations and the very wealthy, thus increasing debt, with no ROI to the country...
>GOP under Trump could never get an Infrastructure Bill of any kind to the floors of Congress...even when they had complete control for the first two years of Trump's administration...Biden is doing his Bill(s) in less than a year.
The GOP's track record on being the country's 'fiduciary' and 'manager' is not at all impressive.
Additionally, the Biden admin's $3.5T bill deals with the issue of "Human Capital", which is just as real as steel and concrete when it comes to GDP growth...as noted in the attached link.
As I mentioned to 678, there are provisions for reduced drug pricing and improved border security...no one expects every provision to be accepted in total or at all...be specific...what parts would you keep...amend...or throw out...and say why...otherwise, you're being lazy and knee-jerk in your reaction.
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Level 4
Lot's of deflections to others - I can tell that even you know this sucks.
BaronVonZemo 64186 posts(no message) -
Level 4
How did a raging liberal like you ever build a career in energy? And
as I said above, presidents don’t create a balance budget or deficit spending. They can only veto budgets that the house and senate create. Take a civics class. -
Level 4
So, Left spending good; Right spending bad? I'm shocked! Shocked, I say!
(no message)Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.
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Level 3
Even the provisions for reduced drug prices and increased border security?...surely, there are some
items you'd accept...maybe even the coverage for Pre-K and 2 yrs of Community College to help our work force be better educated?
You wouldn't just reject something without investigating it, would you?
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Level 1
Through the same Byrd loophole around the Constitution that they used for Obamacare. Reconciliation
BaronVonZemo 64186 posts(no message) -
Level 1
While the MAGA freaks mutter and clamor about stolen elections, racism against whites/wokeism,
and senility.
The problem is the GOP has lost all credibility as the party of fiscal responsibility to offer principled opposition.
Biden and the D’s taking full advantage.
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Level 1
The Californication of the country... without Silicon Valley.
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
•From bondage to spiritual faith;
•From spiritual faith to great courage;
•From courage to liberty;
•From liberty to abundance;
•From abundance to complacency;
•From complacency to apathy;
•From apathy to dependence;
•From dependence back into bondage." Lord Woodhouselee
California on the cutting edge... just ask the governor.
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Level 1
Naw... it goes much further back than that and happened in a Russian sauna.
This land is your land and my land and everyone's land... so long as you comply comrades. -
Level 1
Be sure to thank your kids. I always do when the gov't passes a big spending bill..
After all, they are the ones (their futures) we are stealing from to get this money now.
It is interesting to see their reactions.
Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good. -
Level 1
I guess the big tax break for the Uber wealthy worked out great for the US.
jimbasil 55027 posts(no message)Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk-
Level 2
That’s what makes one chuckle about the prior occupant. He spent like a drunk and hurt revenue
with the tax cut for billionaires. At least this guy isn’t doing the tax cut thing on top of his drunken spending. -
Level 2
Socialism works great until you run out rich people’s money. Take the top richest
Americans and take all their wealth and figure out how long that money will last to fund the socialist programs that the Dems support. It won’t last a month. Then what?-
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Level 4
When did socialism begin? You and your pals seem to apply it to everything you think is bad.
jimbasil 55027 postsBut what's good is Voter ID seeing there is little to no voter fraud in this country. - What's good is telling a woman about her rights as an American.
What's good is what your little minded group considers is good and it's not communism but American. Anyone else who wishes better for the USA
and its citizens is socialism - like, stopping pollution, Climate Change, Vaccines for things that kill American's - But attacking the US Capitol to hang
Mike Pence, assassinate the Speaker of the House and do kill all others if it can be done all to end democracy, now that's democracy at its finest.
Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk -
Level 4
As Ned suggests above you are stealing from you children and grandchildren a lifestyle you can’t
afford. Doesn’t that bother you? Just ask them now for all their money. It would at least be honest.-
Level 5
Where was Ned the last 4 years when that was in full tilt? Defending insanity in the Oval.
I pointed out to you folks that there is no more fiscally Conservative party left which was primarily why I am an R (at least for now still).-
Level 6
Consistently opposing spending, as usual. Where is 521 & others who only opposed GOP spending...
...but who pretended they were against over spending.
I've always been consistent. I would cut every government program by 20% tomorrow, even my favorite ones. I've always been 100% consistent on this. But, since everything is personal for you, and not substantive, you launch fake attacks. We don't expect anything better from you.
Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.-
Level 7
Really now Neddie? Your only response was the D’s would be worse.
You wholeheartedly supported the deficit increasing share buy back tax cut as well.-
Level 8
I usually go with the truth. We see that now.
Recall that I used to say that the GOP were 80% Dems when it came to spending...driving toward the edge of the debt cliff, just a little slower. Not good, but not as bad as the Dems.
And, if the truth is mildly of interest to you, you will admit that I eventually said that debt and spending was a wash as far as both parties were concerned. There is no fiscally responsible party now.
And, I did say that if both parties were going to spend us into oblivion, we might as well have the spending be for something valuable to me. But, I have never wholeheartedly supported deficit spending. The truth is lost on you, though.
At least Trump didn't want the bloated budget the GOP sent him the first year. But, he obviously gave in. He basically had both parties going against him at that point. He needed one to help him politically. It is what it is.
But, again, you will maintain your attack on me in spite of the facts because everything is personal to you, and you have decided I am your personal enemy. I can't imagine how difficult it must be, to be you.
Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.-
Level 9
I rest my case. It wasn’t a big issue for you. Defending insanity was.
Your personal attacks are also lame. You don’t like being called out on your positions and hypocrisies even though you indulge in it frequently with others. It’s not personal Neddie. I just think you are often (not always) full of shit politically. Doesn’t make you a bad person.-
Level 10
Resting your case is a good idea.
(no message)Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.
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Level 2
The Uber wealthy will be the greatest beneficiaries if the Dems repeal the SALT limits
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Level 3
And where did you hear that ditty?
jimbasil 55027 posts(no message)Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk-
Level 4
Bloomberg News Channel.
If you think about it... they own all the most expensive real estate.
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Level 2
Your visit to the Capitol last January was the beginning of your hate for Democracy, yes?
jimbasil 55027 posts(no message)Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk-
Level 3
Democracy has always been problematic, which is why we have a republic.
(no message)Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.-
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Level 5
Indeed, your side's disdain for Madison and Jefferson is obvious.
(no message)Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.-
Level 6
No, your dumb remark isn’t worthy of Channeling Jefferson
jimbasil 55027 posts(no message)Jack, he is a banker
and Jane, she is a clerk
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End of conversation