I am super entertained at the theatrics of the testimony, so that's great. If we can't get good laws out of Congress, the least they could do is entertain us.

But my question is, how does the 5th amendment become nullified by a pardon?

Or at least that is the theory. That said, it doesn’t preclude using the testimony to sue you for something else or to sue someone else, or in Fauci’s case, for states to sue him.

((Edit to add: Sorry if that was too harsh. Your posts are always constructive.))

I don't think reputation damage is enough for a guy who illegally funded the development of a virus that killed over 7 million people.

Granted, 7 million dead is something that just bores Quest. How can he bother himself to think about that? But it bothers me.

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US law allows the courts and Congress to subpoena Fauci to testify. So, he has to testify.

But: The 5th Amendment says he doesn't have to testify if he might incriminate himself in a criminal case. This trumps the law. In constitutional rochambeau: Constitution beats statute. So, he doesn't have to testify.

But, but (and this is your question, I think): The pardon makes it impossible for him to be prosecuted criminally, so the 5th Amendment, which deals with criminal cases, does not apply. So, he has to testify.

But, but, but: The 5th Amendment extends to state criminal cases, but the pardon extends only to federal prosecutions. So, he may be invoking the 5th to avoid incriminating himself in state criminal court. So, he doesn't have to testify.

But, but, but, but: If someone invokes the 5th inappropriately (e.g., they say they cannot testify without incriminating themself, but Congress thinks they can testify freely), they can be found in contempt. I'm not too familiar with how Congressional contempt proceedings are handled. I know that people have gotten away with contempt for improperly pleading the 5th before. For example, Lois Lerner was found in contempt for pleading the 5th regarding using the IRS to target conservative organizations. Nothing happened to her because the Obama DOJ dropped it. (She had even publicly apologized for targeting conservative organizations, and still the Obama DOJ said she could invoke the 5th.) If there were a contempt proceeding, I sure would like for Fauci to try to identify a state statute under which he could be prosecuted criminally, to justify his invocation of the 5th. Something tells me nothing will happen. I just don't have too much faith in our Congress (regardless of which party controls it.

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Obviously, it seems silly for him to plead the 5th on such a question, which is why Hawley asked it, to demonstrate how unreasonable Fauci was being.

Devil's advocate (that is, advocate for Fauci): If you start answering questions, you start down a slippery slope, and you might get trapped into answering something you don't want to answer. Easier to just not answer anything, and let them put you in contempt for not stating the day of the week.

Tell me if I am thinking about this correctly.

If you received a pardon for a specific crime, you couldn't take the 5th on questions related to that crime. I think that's what Paul was talking about referencing some court ruling. Note: I am not sure I agree with that ruling. I don't think we should be compelled to speak, ever. The freedom to remain silent is a core individual liberty, IMO.

But the argument seems to be that because Fauci received and accepted a pardon for any crimes he may have committed from 2014 to 2025, he should be compelled to testify on anything that happened over that decade+, since there is no jeopardy protected by the 5th. I think I get the logic, but don't agree with it.

Also, you seem to imply that a person may have to justify their use of the 5th, I don't get that at all.

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forced to wear masks and get vaccines that they did not need (remember when I said that the low risk children didn't need it and the faux medical experts on this board foolishly argued otherwise? Who did they rely on? Fauci...who was lying the whole time - apparently to protect his reputation which he deemed to be more important than those children.

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Link: https://x.com/gitrdonelarry/status/2082520896699240590?s=61