wrong. I never voted for Obama but he was the president. But while i might understand your hatred for this president the fact that you would support a communist government over American interest is astonishing.

But you're so far up your own ass you can't think straight.

So, that makes sense.

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You can dislike China's unfair trade policies, and dislike Trump's method of challenging them.

Both. At. The. Same. Time.

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You do it by bringing a coalition like TPP and the EU against them on unfair practices.

You don’t do it by embracing a lib dem tariff freak like Navarro.

They severely underestimated China’s will in this.

How has that worked out since Bush pushed for them in the WTO. Get serious. The EU is not a player. You know that.

It’s as much in their interest as ours to put an end to China’s trade practices. The other pacific rim nations that are alternatives to China also have every incentive to knock them down. It takes leadership, will, and patience. It’s the only viable way.

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Maybe whatever he was doing made sense.

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Do you think it is relevant that millions of jobs were created under Obama, and that unemployment fell to 4.7% under Obama?

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...and goods were getting cheaper for the middle class to purchase.

There are two sides to this. I don't really know the right balance of trade policies, but then again I do not have teams of economists working for me like Obama, Bush, Clinton and Reagan did.

Not you, though. You know exactly what to do, and it is exactly what Trump is doing.

The latter results in reduced unemployment, but it is not necessarily better for the country or for the employees.

The trade war is about the types of jobs Americans get to have.

Are you a market capitalist or not? The market and technology dictate manufacturing.

Inefficiency, obsolescence, and high labor costs drove most manufacturing from here.

You want to artificially bring back that which from a cost perspective makes no sense, so you let the govt. arbitrarily intervene through tariffs.

That which worked for the US 100 years ago now works for China. Maybe it is time to change paradigms. No need to be a slave to a system which no longer works. I'm not an expert on these things. But, I am willing to be flexible, and consider that the old systems are not good for us now.

do. They are tariff lovers also.

Look, I was always a free market guy. Back in those heady days, going to Libertarian Party Conventions, I was drinking the free market coolaid.

I still think that all other things being equal, free markets are better. I'm not AOC communist looking for government control of the economy. That's totally moronic to even go there. It's like you are trying to force me into one of only two extermes.

We are talking about tariffs here. A trade war. The US used to be in the position of China...a developing nation about to break out and take over the world economically speaking. Free trade was great for us then. No so much for England. Now, we are the old England, and China is the old US, economically speaking. Doesn't it make sense to you that free trade is great for China when they have cheap labor like they do?...especially when they are stealing our technology? Yes, I get the arguments that free markets are better in the long run. But, don't worry, the GOP and the Dems are spending us into oblivion, so how long can the long run really be???. We might as well keep jobs here as long as we can. And, I've already seen that the tariffs work in real life. You can make this personal if you want, but it isn't for me. I'm not thinking politically. I'm trying to make the best call for the country at the moment. Don't let it hurt your feelings. I mean, I don't get why it would, but you are taking this a little too personally, and trying to insult me back into my old free market ways. Maybe I will dice this brief flirtation with tariffs was a mistake. But, for now, it doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

While you always raise this, it’s not personal.

You seem like a good guy and generally make reasonable points. I just disagree with some and point out the inconsistencies. Tariffs is a big one.

Non competitive, high wage, labor intensive manufacturing always goes away through market forces and innovation.

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Either Trump's trade war worked for 1% of the work force, or unemployment would have happened anyway, without the Trade War.

And who left it to Barry that way? Oh yeah Chad’s pals W and Vice.

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shit. Like Abe zLincoln compared to this guy though.

screwed is just demagoguery.

Those jobs which have been going away since the 80’s aren’t coming back any more than passenger train service using steam locomotives is.

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He is selling the same kind of dishonest snake oil.

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Or should I say

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How is that supporting China?

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has hardly made us energy independent. And there was no deal involved with it. The tax cut is a long term disaster debt wise. There was also no deal there with another side as his party controlled Congress.

I will give him defense costs, but that’s it. Pretty pathetic actually.

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Oil independence is almost entirely shale fracking.

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that has ripped us off for decades. It doesn't need Developing Nation status anymore. We don't need their goddamn market when they're waging a non-declared war in the Pacific. They can go pound sand. "Finally, an administration that's batting for the guy that puts his capital up there and gets screwed over and over and over and over again. Enough already, let's fix it!"

Amen. Pathetic spineless weak troglodyte troll people oppose Trump on this.

Like all of our borrowers selling bonds to them didn’t know that?

Like all of our business trying to exploit their economy end formerly cheap labor didn’t know that?

Such a whiny pussy.

Trump hatred.

I am saying that we made our own mess with them and it’s going to take some time to get out of it.

When you make pacts with the devil they come back to haunt you.

And ours with them to borrow so we could live beyond our means and use their cheap labor is exploding in our face.

He’s right got once.

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The initial discussion was about condemning China over Hong Kong. I pointed out that for once I agreed with Orange that it isn’t a good idea right now.

You now want to equate disagreement with the need to fight an immediate existential trade war with China to support of China.

Repeat, no one supports China. There is disagreement over the best policy to deal with them.

That is positive. Everything is a criticism without accepting the fact that China is a tough nut to crack.

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I said there have been plenty.

You now switch up to posts supporting Orange.

Ironically enough though, I did just post that I agree with the Orange stain in not condemning them right now over Hong Kong. I also agree on pulling back on the tariffs. Also on labeling them a currency manipulator.

If we didn't agree with Trump, why would we support him?

Again, just a thought experiment. I haven't taken a stand on this trade war business.

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There were some decent guitar hooks in that first album.

Foreigner never cheesed out as far as Journey did, though. I'll give you that.

I liked Grand Illusion when it came out. Now I am embarrassed I ever did.

Contrast Kansas. I like them also as a pre-teen, but I still think a lot of it awesome.

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Toto, and Supertramp are outside of that group, but perhaps not by too much.

It's only logical Supertramp isn't on any list that is = great prog rock bands.


But do come in from the rain


Africa is the dumbest song ever - nice tune, beyond stupid lyrics

Here's some great lyrics.