Curious..I know many of Holtz’ Players would no longer be accepted at ND. Any idea how ’
Those guys did at ND? i’m assuming they didn’t pursue a phantom major.
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Level 1
Disagree with your premise. Here are a few salient points
It is rather difficult to compare students 30-40 years apart:
First, SAT scores are now inflated. For example, the average SAT math score went up from 497 in 1984 to 513 in 2014. When they revised the SAT in 2017, it jumped up to 527. It is meaningless to compare scores that far back in time with today.
High school GPA’s are inflated. First, there is general inflation—no one likes to give C’s or below these days. Also Honors and AP grades are scaled. It is now possible to get over a 4.0 because for example at some schools an AP course A is worth a 4.5 and an honors A is worth a 4.2. Back in the 80’s, this was not common.
ND has always accepted athletes with grades/test scores below the average for the university overall. I think this is universal and falls in the exceptional ability category.
What I sense is different about Kelly is that they are now targeting HS sophomores and juniors, getting them engaged with admissions earlier in their process to ensure they are taking the appropriate classes to make it into ND. This in essence widens the pool of those available to ND given the student has enough interest for n their education to prepare.
My sense is there is not a big difference in the GPA/test scores of the student athletes ND signs versus other schools. What is different is they expect just a few more specific classes (e.g. foreign language), Also, they must make real progress towards a degree once enrolled.
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Level 2
Overall you make some good points points but you miss big on one
There is a significant difference between what SAT/ACT scores ND accepts and what the huge chunk of other Power 5 schools accept. Generally speaking, the big chunk of the Power 5 schools accept at the NCAA minimums especially in re: standardized test scores/GPA combination. ND operates far past the NCAA minimums.
The big issue that ND has re: recruiting is the academic rigor that is required at ND and it does chase some possibles recruits off. There aren't jock majors (and they actually have to have majors at ND), there aren't correspondence/on-line/independent study courses that proliferate at public universities that the athletes are steered to. You do need to graduate in 4 years at ND while most schools set that standard at 5 if they actually do monitor the progress toward graduation at all. Your average ND student athlete also competes with a much higher quality of student (and associated higher level of academic standards/expectations) in the classroom than those found at your typical state school. There are probably only a handful of Power 5 schools (Stanford, NW, perhaps Vandy, etc) where the athletes face as high a quality student on a day-in, day-out basis. The good news is that we are rarely embarrassed by our graduated student athletes and they frequently set high standards for all of us.
In all, it does a disservice to the student athletes who do make the effort at some fine schools to perform in the classroom and graduate. But we all know a good chunk of the "student-athletes" in the high profile programs have little interest in academics other than to stay eligible.
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Level 1
How do you know this?
(no message)'I define fear as standing across from Joe Louis and knowing he wants to go home early.' - Max Baer-
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Level 3
As I thought
So you don’t actually ‘know’ anything, but instead are just regurgitating message board heresay.
Edit: That comes across as too harsh. I know many share the same thought, and you could be right. I am skeptical.
'I define fear as standing across from Joe Louis and knowing he wants to go home early.' - Max Baer-
Level 4
Different sports, but bear with nme for a sec
I have kids (and close friends with kids) that went thru the recruiting process at ND and other schools in Lacrosse, Soccer, and Swimming.
The scales are different by sport and school, but every school appears to have a minimum target SAT/GPA by individual, sport and for the school.
So (and using this example to get away from ND), Princeton has a swimmer target SAT but will allow a few swimmers in below the target SAT range as long as the average for all swimming recruits meets the team target.
More broadly, the swimming target might be a higher than the target in other sports so that the entire "student athlete" number meets a standard.
This will vary significantly by school. The target SAT/ACT is significantly lower at Maryland for example which makes sense as the requirements for all students is lower. A student/athlete at other schools can compete in the classroom without the higher GPA/SAT/ college prep high school background.
Each school manages this differently but the themes appear to be the same. Specifically at ND, getting a kid in at the minimums can be a problem. They need to be confident that the kid can maintain eligibility (and btw, the professors don't really care that the kid can run a 4.3 40.). The athletic department works to keep kids on track with tutors, study halls (required Freshman year) and very close management regarding grades - but this is not easy as we all know based on previous players becoming academically ineligible.
Not taking anything away from other schools, but it is hard to find kids that can manage both at ND.
So, they have to finds kids that want to work in the classroom that also have the ability. Not an easy task, and that holds (I think) for ND, Stanford, Vandy, Duke etc.
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Level 5
Well put
Well reasoned, based on actual experience. Cognizant of the fact you try to bring in a kid with a 1000 SAT to compete in the classroom with kids at 1400+ you are asking for trouble. But apparently ND does just that. I have said it before it is a modern day miracle a bunch of kids with 1000 SATs can make the grade in classrooms with 1400+ students. Hats off to the athletic department, the tutors, and to these kids. So I readily acknowledge that is the difference, we have to really look hard at the kid and trust that he can make it through that rigor. But we now bring in a lot of these kids a semester early, most stay for 2-3 summers and take classes, and many finish in 3 1/2 years so somehow they are doing it. Not hard to believe as I would assume they knock out 12 credits with early enrollment and then take 6 credits each of 2-3 summers. You need 120 to graduate in most majors so these guys have 24-30 credits from summers and in case of early enrollees that first spring semester. That leaves 90-96 credits in the other 8 semesters or 11-12 credits per semester. When I was at ND I took 18-21 almost every semester due to engineering and ROTC. Not many of these guys are taking engineering, or physics, or biomedical engineering, or pre-med, so let's not kid ourselves into thinking they are.
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Level 6
It is about recruiting and retention
Your observation and the one commented on are good take on the "upfront"
During the Kelly Era seems like we have done a solid job of acquiring the "resources" to make us BCS competitive but retention has been a bit of a disaster particularly for the most promising recruits (BTW not those who left early or moved on because they were not likely to get playing time). If the program worked right we would always have a solid cadre of 5th year players plus something like 20 seniors ... pretty much has never happened ... we have played some FR because there was a talent gap not because they were too good to sit.
Sort of off the radar in the last couple of years noticed we have hired some folk to work closely with the players to help them better "acclimate." I think of them as "retention specialists" hopefully drawing on all the resources ND has to keep them "on track." Seems like this is working as we now seem to have some kind of coherent red-shirting program (that doesn't officially exist) so we can reload to fill losses with players who have program experience (including the weight room).
Aside: like several posters agree there are recruits out there that essentially always are going to wind up with our prospective BCS competitors so we always have that hill to overcome to even get where we did this year.
If we want to level the playing field (I don't think the administration would make this a top school priority) something really "out of the box" would need to be done - example: opening a prep school like IMG or what the Naval Academy has.-
Level 7
Good point - ND must support these recruits
It is hard for most any kid to compete in the classroom with the current class of ND students.
Granted, the athlete gets tutors, early choice of classes etc. BUT that same athlete has tremendous additional responsibilities (meetings, practice, lifting...) Keeping that kid eligible and even more importantly ensuring that he receives a quality education is no small task. It does the kid a disservice to just lump him in some shit major and push him through.
I think ND does a good job here, but the support and balancing football and education is a must. Without the support, all those great recruits just turn into transfers and academically ineligibles that we will then be complaining about here.
Go Irish
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Level 7
Didnt Tony Rice attend the school across US31, next door to St Mary's?
Forget the name of it but at one time some of these guys did start off there
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Level 8
Rice came straight to ND (I think you are thinking Holy Cross)
I am 95% + sure he was ND as a freshman but as a Prop 48 at the time he was not eligible to play until his Soph year.
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Level 9
That is correct. A prop 48 student would not have gone to a junior college...
The whole point of prop 48 was to allow the student to get acclimated to the school before taking on athletics.
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Level 10
Couple points
ND does "recruit" from Holy Cross College (used by Jr College as I remember). It's two most famous FB related alumni were Rudy and (a surprise to me) Skip Holtz
As is noted Prop 48 was one of several attempts by the NCAA to allow athletes with graduation potential to be recruited. ND used this "out of the box" tool for FB to recruit Rice and Foley (for some reason Zorich gets mentioned in this context but didn't come in this way). It involved no involvement in FB at all as a FR but losing that year of eligibility.
BTW: USC did do something way out of the box (and ethically challenged to me) to improve recruiting. After being pulverized in the 66 game they launched what was officially known as the "national recruiting program" ... what they actually did until sometime into the Devine/Faust period was to use their affirmative action program to get essentially bypass their normal admissions standards. In the spirit of the "end justifies the means" when caught they claimed it was ok because other PAC schools would have recruited those players. Meanwhile, in the "ND world" Ara, etc were getting flak because USC was getting better recruits - for whatever reason (but this is how ND rolls in general) ND never officially mentioned or criticized this practice and just kept on playing as if the field was level.
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Level 5
I don't have a good answer to that
For starters, there was Lou Holtz, a once in a generation coach.
I tend to think this is less about ND's recruiting deficiencies and more about everyone else upping their game. The money has grown dramatically since Holtz' time, with P5 teams taking home much more each year from their respective league's media deals than we bring home from the NBC deal. What was once a widely reported 'lucrative' deal is no more. Also, unlike before, every major team's games on TV each week.
It also has to do with geography. I would love to see an assessment of where the 5 stars have come from over time. Today they come from SEC country, Texas and CA. Maybe they always have, but they do not come from the midwest.
I think the SEC grayshirting practice is a huge competitive advantage and am shocked it is allowed. It reeks.
Given our self-imposed limitations, I think it's still a great accomplishment to bring home classes ranked from 10-15 every year.
Or I could be completely wrong about everything I just said.
'I define fear as standing across from Joe Louis and knowing he wants to go home early.' - Max Baer-
Level 6
What exactly is a gray shirting practice?
Am I right in saying Alabama is the best at it. They intentionally bring in more scholarships than the 85 limitation and weed out the ones that turn out to be B and C performers? Kind of like bringing in both Tua T and Jalen Hurts, or Fromm and Fields, knowing that one is going to be the starter and the other better pack it up and leave? Except they do that at multiple positions? These kids have been competitive their whole lives, do we really think that is such a big deal? I don't know. Perhaps it is. Does it reek? Is the kid and his Dad/Mother that stupid they dont know what they are getting themselves into?
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Level 7
Bama and many top programs practice what you describe, but that is not gray shirting.
Gray shirting is merely delaying your grant in aid for, usually a semester. The kid can enroll in school but doesn't receive a scholarship right away, and can not play nor practice with the team. In fact, many gray shirts don't even attend the school they committed to. Instead they enroll in junior colleges for that period since they have to pay their own way. The practice is common when schools over sign during a recruiting cycle. The gray shirted player could then be counted in the subsequent year's recruiting class.
There are plenty of stories of kids being told at the last minute of the schools plans. The kid then has little choice but to accept as other schools would have stopped recruiting them. On the other hand, a kid who gray shirts is free to accept a subsequent offer from another school without transfer penalties.
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Level 8
Keep in mind too
The cost of tuition room and board for in state students at GA, Alabama and Florida isnt anywhere close to ND......granted many of these kids come from very poor financial backgrounds but for some of these kids it really isnt a hardship
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Level 9
Absolutely right. The financial hardship is why so many enroll in junior college. Also...
So many kids are told late in the process that they'll have to go that route. If a coach just happens to be caught short on numbers and tells the kid that if he still wants to come to that school he'll have to pay his way for a semester, then that's fine. As long as he is upfront and communicates that early when it becomes apparent there might be a numbers crunch. That way, a kid can make a choice when there are still other options available to him.
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Level 9
In-state tuition at Bama is over $10,000 per year. Out of state, around $30,000.
The days of cheap State University education is long gone, for the most part.
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Level 11
That’s the problem.
In this day and age, it isn’t a lot. But it’s a shit-load of money if your family income is $30k-$50k a year. And that in-state number was just tuition. Kids coming in and paying their own way, even just for a semester, are taking on a huge financial burden in many cases. It isn’t like yesteryear.
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Level 11
That would be very cheap. But he cited tuition only. He did not include the other costs associated.
When you include room and board, as well as books and supplies, Alabama is in line with most state universities.
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Level 12
Yes. The point I was trying to make is that it is a big financial burden.
The link sets out the cost, including room and board. It’s a big number for average families.
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Level 1
Werent there articles
About how Kelly got the bar lowered quite a bit. Like SAT scores as much as 400 pts lower than the incoming freshmen average of 1400?
These aren’t rocket scientists matter of fact Kelly openly acknowledged that
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Level 2
Scores over a 1000 are pretty good for football players, even Stanford has some of those. I think
there was a study on that a few years ago that indicated a lot of schools had players with 900 or even less.
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Level 3
It is considerably lower than their peers
you get 800 for filling in your name
We arent requiring our players to have 1400's so the bar has been lowered considerably and the same articles
(See SB Nation in the 2015 timeframe) point out that Kelly indicated most if not all of his scholarship players would not be accepted otherwise
Certainly these folks have to maintain standing once they are accepted and clearly this may or may not occur at some other schools but they arent required to take Calculus, they arent required to take two languages, and there are some easy majors so let's not kid ourselves.
But please can we stop with the admissions standards bullshit?
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Level 4
Every school with high academic standards has football players with "considerably lower" scores than
. . . their peers. That has always been the case at ND. And at Stanford. And Northwestern. Etc. Football players at Stanford are absolutely not getting the test scores of their peers.
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Level 5
Understood
Yet we continue to have people here who claim admissions standards are keeping us from being elite......
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Level 6
I don't agree that academic standards are "keeping us from being elite."
But I think there is some truth to the idea that ND has more obstacles in recruiting than the average SEC school or big state schools. It has less to do with test scores than it does with ND making some actual decisions regarding recruits on the academic front. For example, I think it is pretty well understood that Markese Stepp was all in for ND, but was declined admission. He ended up at USC. ND could really use him at RB right now. We see these stories from time-to-time, which lend credence to the idea that ND is more limited than some. So, yeah, some fans lean too heavily on the academic limitation crutch. But ND isn't on exactly the same footing as everyone else. Neither is Stanford and some others.
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Level 4
I've been looking for a discussion such as this. I'm a facts guy and
I like to argue using them. I live in Ohio and deal with condescending Tosu fans and was looking for facts to support the claims of academic handcuffs. I have an ally in the office, who uses the academic challenges to defend why ND does not get the elite athletes. I have always thought this to be true but in the absence of real evidence I was hesitant to suggest that myself. This tread suggests to let it go. I would love to see Notre Dame win a national championship in my lifetime, and I just can't put my finger on why we can't seem to get there. Watching the speed and talent of that game last night, I was really disheartened.
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Level 4
No doubt about that but I do think SAT scores are a bit overrated. I have seen more determined less
talented kids do way better in life. SAT scores show your talent but you have to use the intelligence tool "smartly" to succeed in life. Tony Rice is a success story from a kid who could not play as a freshman.
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Level 5
Exactly, the point of a standardized test is because it's an easy way to quickly judge the masses
A specific organization as small as ND Football shouldn't be using the SAT as a heavy indicator or even a specific score requirement.
Since the pool would be small, ND could do significant research to determine if certain players have the character, work ethic, etc to succeed.
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Level 5
Don’t disagree
But this discussion centers around our ability to attract talent and limitations placed on Kelly to recruit them.
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Level 3
There is little doubt that Admissions has been more "flexible" with Kelly
For example, allowing kids to enter in January and willing to let Kelly make offers prior to approval from Admissions which used to be required.
Statistical comparisons going back 20 years (i.e., Average SAT scores, GPAs, etc) are virtually impossible due to grade/score inflation, etc.
Holtz's famous bitch was that he couldn't get players into ND that beat him when we played OSU in the 90s. There is a bit of a unproven myth that Admissions got tougher during The Holtz era. It was probably more of a fact that Holtz continued to push the Admissions envelope and Admissions pushed back and drew a line.....depending on who you talked to some thought it was about time. At this point it is more folklore than anything else.
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End of conversation